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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Original poster

A Levels for PPE?

61 replies

MissingLinker · 01/12/2019 16:39

DNiece has to complete A Level application by Tuesday. She's been set on doing either PPE or History and Economics at university and is very academically able, is most interested in the Oxford PPE course. Her prospective 6th form (heavily) encourages 4 A Levels for more able students.

So far, her options for History, Economics and Maths. As a fourth option she's considering Geography or Psychology. She is predicted a 9 at GCSE geography but has never had the chance to study psychology before.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to which of these options would be most useful (or if there's anything else you would consider beneficial)? Thanks Smile

OP posts:
Trewser · 04/12/2019 17:25

When the people you know get to Oxford they will find that many if not most of their peers have four A levels (or more) as Bubbles review of the entry stats confirms but will that matter?

Needmoresleep · 04/12/2019 17:39

Yes, but will those with 4 a levels feel they have wasted their time by keeping up a language or Eng Lit or whatever else gave them a broader education.

And will they feel less prepared for tackling the very heavy work load that PPE entails.

I can’t see any justification for your very categorical statement that able pupils will have been wasting their time taking a fourth A level, if that is what they want to do.

By the way are you a teacher?

Katfood · 04/12/2019 17:41

My ds is currently applying to Uni and most offers take into account his 4 Alevels how?

By making an offer that takes into account all 4 A levels. Eg if the the entry requirement is A*AA for 3 A levels they offer AAAA or AAAB for 4 A Levels.

Katfood · 04/12/2019 17:52

4 A levels are a waste of time

Wow, what a narrow minded view. Don't our kids go to school to learn and expand their horizons?

NellyBarney · 04/12/2019 17:53

PPE as in Philosopgy, Politics and Economics or as in Psychology, Politics and Economics? If the former, I would suggest either a 4th A level in Philosophy (or RE, Ethical Studies, Divinity, however school calls it) or widely reading in the latter. If Psychology is meant by first P I would suggest FM as Psychology at Oxford is very math (statistics, stochastics, probability) based. For Philosophy at Oxford as part of PPE I would also suggest coding (any computer science A level) is a pretty good preparation ( at least when I read these subjects at Oxford many months ago the syllabus was very keen on logic). If she does not have Politics or Philosophy as A levels use personal statement as way to indicate interest/books read in these areas. ( Or any prizes won in essay competitions about these topics).

Trewser · 04/12/2019 17:53

And will they feel less prepared for tackling the very heavy work load that PPE entails

I doubt it, as the students I know who have done PPE did very well and only did 3 a levels.

4 A levels are not essential or even necessary.

BlaueLagune · 04/12/2019 17:57

I think 3 A levels is enough, even for Oxford and even for PPE. But if the school insists on 4, you are a bit stuck I guess.

My ds is doing 3, plus an outside level 3 diploma (equivalent to an A level) via his sporting body, is learning to drive, has a casual job and spends time on a sport. A 4th A level or EPQ wouldn't have been possible, although I hope he'll get the chance to do a language course overseas next summer and do a few uni taster days.

Education isn't just about how many A levels you got. I see lots of people saying on here that universities aren't interested in anything outside narrow academic interest. If that is actually true it has changed a huge amount since I applied, when you had to have lots of outside interests and they wanted to know how you'd contribute to the life of the university as well as your interest and aptitude in your desired subject(s) of study.

Cuddlysnowleopard · 04/12/2019 18:04

DS has been advised that an EPQ is worthless for Oxford. He is planning on taking 4A Levels, but mainly because he has 4 subjects he is desperate to study at. A Level.

sandybayley · 04/12/2019 18:19

How often do we have to have the 4 A Levels discussion on MN? So much nonsense spouted every time.

DS is taking 4 A Levels and is predicted 4 x A star. He has coped well and played rugby and cricket competitively and is holding down a part time job. He has chemistry offers from 4 universities (including Durham and Imperial) and an Oxford interview.

None of his offers are based on the four, his Durham offer (A star AA) doesn't even specify which of the 4 his A star should be in (it could be history)

Doing 4 has been a positive asset for DS so anyone with a DC they think will benefit from taking 4 should do so with confidence.

Grufallosfriends · 04/12/2019 18:22

My dd isn't applying for PPE (or Oxford) but is doing 4 Alevels because she struggled to narrow it down any further. Her subjects include Maths, a language, a Science and Music. She enjoys them all and they offer different skills/learning.

Her school do offer the option to drop one subject after year 12 (and take an AS) but a lot of her friends are continuing with 4.

Grufallosfriends · 04/12/2019 18:26

And, as stated below, Uni offers for 4 A levels either offer 4 grade requirements that are lower than the standard 3 offer, or they specify 3 but you have the option in which 3 to achieve the grades! So it is definitely a positive if you enjoy the 4 subjects.

Trewser · 04/12/2019 19:02

How often do we have to have the 4 A Levels discussion on MN? So much nonsense spouted every time

What nonsense? If your ds is doing well with 4 then that's great. 4 is not essential for Oxbridge.

Trewser · 04/12/2019 19:04

DS has been advised that an EPQ is worthless for Oxford

So why do people with 3 A levels and an EPQ get Oxbridge offers then? Confused

Cuddlysnowleopard · 04/12/2019 19:16

Because they are looking at the A Levels themselves, not the EPQ?

I'm only saying what I have been told by heads of department at two 6th Form open evenings - and also by the teacher running the EPQ department at one school. She said, if DS is considering oxbridge, to take a 4th a level, as EPQ's are not taken into consideration. I have no idea if it's correct, but it's what I have been told.

Trewser · 04/12/2019 19:17

Yes possibly. 3 A levels definitely acceptable though!

Grufallosfriends · 04/12/2019 19:33

Of course 3 have to be 'acceptable'. But those applicants offering 4 may be more successful?

I wonder if there are statistics on this?

Trewser · 04/12/2019 19:38

Not sure. I would imagine further maths is essential for maths and engineering?

Needmoresleep · 04/12/2019 19:51

No. No course demands double maths because not all schools offer it.

That said if your school does offer double maths and you want to study a highly quantitative degree you would probably need good reasons why you chose not to take FM.

That said some courses don’t like double maths as two of three A levels as they believe this is too narrow. FM as a fourth is better.

Trewser · 04/12/2019 19:51

Yes I meant as a 4th.

sandybayley · 04/12/2019 19:52

@Trewser - of course 4 isn't essential for Oxbridge. But if you can excel at 4 and keep everything else going then you will shine more than a candidate with 3 - it stands to reason.

The 'nonsense' I refer to is those posters who wilfully tell others that there is no point in doing 4. There most certainly is a point and I question the motives of those who deliberately encourage others to dull their DC ambitions.

Trewser · 04/12/2019 20:12

I question the motives of those who deliberately encourage others to dull their DC ambitions

Noone is doing that Confused

Grufallosfriends · 04/12/2019 20:29

That said some courses don’t like double maths as two of three A levels as they believe this is too narrow. FM as a fourth is better.

Our school considers Further Maths and Maths as one subject, with Maths taught in yr12 and FM in yr13. Pupils HAVE to take two further subjects.

Fifthtimelucky · 04/12/2019 21:24

Things may have changed but I don't think universities necessarily give a reduced offer to candidates taking 4 A levels. I remember a friend of my daughter who (2015 entry) whose offer from Cambridge was 4 A*s.

At the time I went to a talk for prospective parents at Cambridge and they were clear that if students were taking 4 A levels, they would always include all 4 in the offer. Obviously for students taking 3 A levels, the offer was based on 3.

Boyskeepswinging · 05/12/2019 05:56

I think a major problem with this sort of discussion is that not only do different universities have different entry criteria but different courses at the same university will have different entry criteria.

The 4 A levels debate is a prime example of how different courses treat candidates presenting with 4 A levels. As we've seen some ignore the fourth A level, some make an offer on all 4 A levels. As ever my advice is to contact the Admissions Team for that specific course at that specific university. Only then will you have the definitive answer you need.

anxioussue · 05/12/2019 05:59

Psychology is counted as a science by universities such as Birmingham and Bristol so not that soft