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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Cambridge programme - misguided and naive?

21 replies

Lessstressy · 01/12/2019 08:07

I don’t for a minute doubt the selfless motives of those involved, and it is absolutely tragic that 2 people were killed but how did Cambridge uni think that a radicalised convicted terrorist would be a good fit for their programme?
And who chose a prominent central London venue right next to the site of a recent terrorist atrocity?
Perhaps other ‘ordinary’ ex-offenders on licence would benefit but to me those in higher education at Cambridge have been naive and the idealistic young academics from a totally different background and culture should not have access to people such as this terrorist for their pet projects, let alone group them together in London for the day.
Academics in ivory towers put people, including my family, at risk on Thursday and I worry that their liberal, benevolent but remarkably naive view of Islamic-based terrorism will continue to put far more of us at risk in the future.
The education programme sounds quite paternalistic- the great minds of Cambridge deigning to work with the lowest in society- I wonder what the ex-offenders REALLY think of them. I hope Cambridge are made to tighten up their processes.

OP posts:
VanCleefArpels · 01/12/2019 08:32

Cambridge isn’t the only university to run courses alongside offenders. My daughter’s course at Kent offers a module taught within a local prison alongside the prisoners. It’s one of the reasons she chose the course.

If you read the details of Fruday’s offender you will see that he apparently successfully persuaded many professionals that he had recanted and was rehabilitated or at least working towards that. Do you think the organisers of this event should have or could have questioned that?

And no, I don’t think it’s a bad thing for anyone to pursue programmes to reintegrate any offender back into society. It’s what our penal system should be for.

You make a lot of pejorative assumptions about the people at this event and academia generally. Perhaps your ire would be better aimed at those who inculcate young men and women into what is essentially a death cult

Hoghgyni · 01/12/2019 12:13

Surely the people who put members of the public at risk were those who radicalised him in the first place, along with those who agreed cuts to the Probation Service & outsourced rehab to the private sector. Your anger shouldn't be directed at those trying to do the right thing.

oneteen · 01/12/2019 13:06

It's a very sad situation, my personal opinion is that you cannot rehabilitate terrorists...time and time again these attacks have been committed by people known to the authorities for terror offences...

BubblesBuddy · 01/12/2019 18:20

So should the sentencing policy be “life” and no parole, ever? That’s saying rehabilitation isn’t possible, ever. We often have life sentences where a number of years to be served is stated, eg 20 years etc. However the indeterminate sentences have been overturned in the courts because standard sentences are fairer. However if there was to be tougher sentencing, how much tougher? Would 30 years and no parole be ok? It’s really difficult to know what would work.

Xenia · 01/12/2019 19:34

The issue is legislation from about 2005? which said people generally should only now serve half the sentence awarded to them (presumably to save tax payers' money). I would prefer we looked at harder at who has 2 nationalities and then lawfully those of the British one. This chap was born in Stoke but as both his parents were born in Pakistan that gives him the dual right so I expect we could have sent him immediately back there once he left the prison gates and then the 2 people he killed would still be alive now and we tax payers would not have to have paid for his course.

friedbeansandcheese · 01/12/2019 19:36

I have wondered why people were not scanned for weapons/their bags checked before attending.

However, the programme sounds like a brilliant idea. Rates of recidivism in the uk are high, and anything that can reduce them is to be encouraged.

goodbyestranger · 01/12/2019 19:53

Academics in ivory towers put people, including my family, at risk on Thursday

This is so egocentric. And were any members of your family hurt? This sounds to me like a hugely commendable programme - agree with pp. Huge condolences to the two families and huge respect to the two young people who were participating in the programme trying to help offenders and wider society in general.

BubblesBuddy · 01/12/2019 21:29

The reason, I suspect, that dual nationality criminals are not “sent back” is because it really says being a British National is only temporary for children of immigrants. In 2016 The Guardian stated, since 2000, 37 such criminals have been deported and most were not white. It’s an unpalatable truth that all governments have not revoked British status very often. There are reasons why this is the case and the obvious one is unrest amongst the ethnic minority people most likely to be stripped of their passports. I also wonder if it would really be a deterrent? If they are desperate to maim and kill, would losing your passport and being deported matter to you? You don’t like where you live much anyway.

I too wondered about checks for knives when they entered the building. That did seem naive.

QueenWhatevs · 01/12/2019 21:32

Two of these "academics in ivory towers" died trying to work for a better society. Your post is disgusting, frankly. I suggest you take a hard look at yourself and your contributions.

Comefromaway · 02/12/2019 11:27

He was radicalised very early. At school he used to watch videos of the twin towers and when other pupils complained they were told not to be racist.

When I was at school (in Stoke) people like him used to be treated as a bit of a joke when they did things like burn copies of Salman Rushdie books. But that was pre-9/11 and now the potential is much more serious than burning books. One would hope that with Prevent training in schools now this would not now happen.

But it's a fine line between treating everyone with too much suspicion and hate and thus risking radicalising them even more.

fairybeagle · 02/12/2019 12:10

Totally agree with you OP.

HeadDeskk · 02/12/2019 15:31

This post actually turned my stomach.

"...the great minds of Cambridge deigning to work with the lowest in society..."

Are you serious? I can't believe the OP actually wrote that. Of course great minds should be working to make the world a better place. Of course they should be working to better and help the lowest of society. What would you have them do? Hole up together and only help themselves? THAT would be a true ivory tower.

Think about what you just said and reconsider your priorities. Direct your anger where it belongs - at the kind of evil that tears down good people and kindness (kind of like your own post!). Don't be poisonous toward good people who are out there actively trying hard to do good in the world.

Lessstressy · 02/12/2019 18:21

Of course everyone wants to live in a safe and fair society. Many of us have eschewed work where the overriding objective is to maximise profits and value for shareholders and instead chosen careers which improve people's lives, futures or support a fairer society; I am one of them. However, many of these jobs are highly regulated, for good reason, in a way that does not appear to apply to higher education projects such as this.

The 'academics in ivory towers' refers to the academics (i.e. researchers and lecturers) involved in this programme, not specifically to the two victims of this terrible attack. I believe they were not 'academics' as such but were Cambridge graduates of a one year masters course having studied for their first degrees elsewhere. One was a volunteer about to join the police and one was working as a course co-ordinator from reports in the media. Most academics, unless coming late to academia, have very little real world experience and tend to focus on one very specific aspect of research. It does not mean that they are qualified to assess risks posed to their students and ultimately to the rest of us by people such as this terrorist.

Without the brave intervention of members of the public many more people may have been injured or killed. I don't doubt its laudable aims but still believe the inclusion of radicalised terrorists in this programme and any others like it is naive and misguided and that all such programmes should be urgently reviewed and very carefully regulated in the future.

This view is not incompatible with support for those who want to research such ideas, but it should not be at the expense of the safety of others, including my own family, which certainly made it feel personal last week.

I also despair at the lack of sensible discourse from some - idealising some institutions or groups of people and demonising any who suggest that there are significant shortcomings is not a mature approach.

OP posts:
VanCleefArpels · 02/12/2019 19:52

lessstressy you omit to mention the fact that the perpetrator had convinced many that he had in fact de-radicalised. His own lawyer has admitted he had had the wool pulled over his eyes. I say again, was it the job of the organisers of this event to question those with specialist expertise who had cleared him to attend?

HeadDeskk · 02/12/2019 20:47

I understand that this incident has been terrible and caused many of us to feel deeply afraid - unfortunately that is the nature of terrorism.

But your anger is misdirected. No matter how you try to rationalise this, directing anger at Cambridge academics is not helpful.

You write: “many of these jobs are highly regulated, for good reason, in a way that does not appear to apply to higher education projects such as this…”

This is incorrect. Academia is highly regulated. This university event probably had multiple layers of committees, ethics board reviews, and paperwork that was checked and cross-checked.

You say, “Most academics, unless coming late to academia, have very little real world experience and tend to focus on one very specific aspect of research. It does not mean that they are qualified to assess risks posed to their students and ultimately to the rest of us by people such as this terrorist.”

There are an incredible number of prejudiced assumptions here. First, this statement offers vague assumptions about “most academics” and their “real world experience.” We have no idea who was attending the Cambridge criminology event, what their professional experience may have been, and this statement implies that academics’ personal life histories somehow encouraged a man to start stabbing people? This is simply unhelpful and wildly vague.

Second, you mention risk assessment and regulations. All research at Cambridge and other universities - especially research and events relating to members of the public and human research subjects, like the ones at the London event - goes through extremely intense ethics reviews. These committees are precisely there to “assess risks posed to their students and ultimately to the rest of us.” You can find more information about the risk assessment process for the specific criminology department that hosted the event here: www.research-integrity.admin.cam.ac.uk/research-ethics/research-ethics-committees

There are many complicated layers to this terrorist event. This man fooled many people, members of the government and the criminal justice system, as well as many ethics review checks. Your assumption that Cambridge academics are to blame for this and did not assess risk is extremely unfair.

We can agree that various people missed something, and the processes of so many organisations, government, and review boards must be reviewed and studied so that this doesn’t happen again. But to imply that the Cambridge academics were flippant and careless is outrageous.

You also say: “The 'academics in ivory towers' refers to the academics (i.e. researchers and lecturers) involved in this programme, not specifically to the two victims of this terrible attack.”

Your definition of “academics” is extremely narrow if you exclude the victims, who were both there for academic interests and academic reasons. No matter how you label them, they were intimately involved in the event, so your shaming of the event is indeed victim shaming, no matter how you try to talk around it.

You also say: “that all such programmes should be urgently reviewed and very carefully regulated in the future.”

Obviously these programmes will be reviewed in the future! But just like a trivia question, the answer is only obvious after you already know the answer. One evil man tricked dozens and dozens of people and regulatory systems. Yes, the systems absolutely must be reviewed, but that doesn’t mean every single person who caused harm in the past has no chance for rehabilitation in the future. That’s a dangerous knee-jerk reaction.

One member of the public that you so greatly admire in your response was a convicted murderer attending the event. What if that former criminal hadn’t been there to help stop the terrorist? Rehabilitation is possible for a great many people, but obviously not all. How can we safely tell the difference without making mistakes? This question will take a great deal of time and effort and academic study to get this right. So let’s not attack those who are doing good work. Let’s not attack the academics working hard on this very complicated and difficult question - especially when they have been victims of a horrible attack.

Finally you say: "this view is not incompatible with support for those who want to research such ideas, but it should not be at the expense of the safety of others, including my own family, which certainly made it feel personal last week.”

You are taking this very personally, and I am sorry for the emotional turmoil you are feeling. We have all felt quite vulnerable. But to be frank, you are still far likelier to die by falling down the stairs in your own home than by a former criminal invited to a rehabilitation event hosted by Cambridge University. Please keep things in perspective, and don’t let this horrible terrorist win. His goal was to make you irrationally afraid. Don’t play into what he wanted.

To quote your subject title - I do believe your anger toward the academics involved is “misguided and naive.”

Yes, your emotions of sadness and fear are valid. Your anger is valid too - but please direct it to the real evil here. One man made a deeply personal choice to take out a knife and kill people. The room full of academics who were trying hard to help make the world a better place did NOT make that choice. Don’t blame them for this.

Stop victim shaming. The academics involved were victims too. Many, many, many people were fooled by this evil man. Many people in the criminal justice system, government, and people who personally knew the terrorist were every bit as fooled as the academics at the conference.

You suggest that you despair the lack of sensible discourse on this topic. I turn that sentiment back around and ask: how sensible you are being by posting on Mumsnet to rile people up against a group of victims who were attacked at their own conference?

You say that people are idealising institutions and demonising people who suggest there were shortcomings. I turn that back around and suggest that perhaps you might demonising an institution and innocent people, and that we are not disagreeing about the shortcomings but rather arguing over who is to blame. Was it the terrorist or the victims fooled by him?

I think we can agree that there were significant shortcomings, but I would argue that the more mature approach would be to study this incident thoughtfully, soberly, and without any irrational anger, so that we can understand what went wrong so that we can get it right next time.

titchy · 02/12/2019 21:59

@HeadDeskk BRILLIANTLY SAID.

Funny isn't it how virtually no news outlets have mentioned the ex-offender who was actually one of the heroes.

SarahAndQuack · 02/12/2019 22:55

Your post is disgusting, frankly.

Agree with this. And your follow-up post doesn't help.

How dare you decide a Masters student is not an 'academic'? How dare you say a course co-ordinator is not an academic?

You have absolutely no idea of how academia works. Most of us come to academia in the same sorts of ways these people did, and most of us work in these sorts of para-academic jobs until (or if) we get permanent posts.

I cannot believe this event was not carefully planned and evaluated. Of course it is awful that what happened, happened. But to blame people who died, who were only barely more than teenagers, seems to be an incredibly nasty response.

And, as @titchy says, you seem not to have understood that one of the brave people ('members of the public,' according to you) who intervened was, in fact, an ex-offender - proving that rehabilitation clearly can offer hope.

VanCleefArpels · 02/12/2019 23:11

@HeadDeskk

Chapeau 👏🏻👏🏻

trixiebelden77 · 02/12/2019 23:16

‘Academics in ivory towers’....this phrase is basically the same as ‘them wot read too many books’.

Surely you don’t imagine that you and your family have never benefited from the research conducted by ‘academics in ivory towers?’

friedbeansandcheese · 03/12/2019 09:34

@Headdeskk - well put.

Piggywaspushed · 03/12/2019 21:16

Well done head.

The two young people who died were remarkable. Saskia Jones also did fabulous work for Eastern Region Rape Crisis and had been specially selected for her fully funded master's at Cambridge.

Your OP is lamentable nonsense OP.

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