Help! How to advise shortlisting for medical school

[Poppiesarelovely]

Can I please pick the brains of parents who’ve been there!
My DD is about to start lower 6th, so we are starting to look more seriously at the options for applications. We live in N Ireland, so travelling to all of DD’s possibilities is just not practical or financially possible.
She is a high achiever, who is being encouraged by school to consider Oxbridge. But my question is how best to narrow down her choices, especially if Oxbridge means having to do the BMAT.
Would it be wise to pick 2 BMAT and 2 UKCAT? How does a student know if they are better suited to one test or the other?
Additionally, whilst she always considered an Oxbridge application, she has mentioned more recently that she might find it difficult being ‘average’ as she has placed 1st in her year since starting high school!
Thanks

Looking at the UCAT myself, it strongly reminds me of the type of questions those kids in our primary school were being tutored in for the 11+ (whether to get into independent schools or grammar). DS went to his local comp, so never sat the 11+, but a few of the kids in his primary school who were aiming that way spent Years 4., 5 & 6 being tutored in and practicing questions that seem to me to look a lot like the UCAT questions.
Obviously that was a long time ago, for those who did sit and were successful at the 11+, but it would be interesting to know whether the UCAT results weigh more heavily towards the independent schools/grammars compared with A Levels and/or the BMAT (DS might well skew any such results, he has an offer to a highly selective independent school for sixth form - but by the time such schools are taking for sixth form, they seem to select based on subject matter exams - he sat exams in Biology, Chemistry and Maths, and an interview, not the verbal and non verbal reasoning that seems to be the staple of the 11+). The UCAT seems a bit of a throwback to that.

Why doesn’t everyone do the BMAT in August? Is there something I’m missing as I thought it would be good to know the score before submitting applications?

Oxford only recognize the October BMAT NOT the earlier one.

Toby no maybe not but several years ago there were. I was explaining the logic. To be fair to MN, taking only BMAT back then was deemed to be outrageously risky/ arrogant/ doomed to fail etc. I was essentially saying that the general approach on MN seems to be very general, emphasizes how lucky any applicant is to get any offer at all, when in fact things aren't like that for everyone. There are bound to be those - and the OP's DD sounds like one of them - who can afford to take more risks, such as doing the BMAT only. One size doesn't fit all.

I don't get the 'only take three A levels'. If you are likely to get A predictions and can manage 4, why not.*

Very much agree with this too. MN lore has already been stated on this thread - better three top grades than four mediocre ones - which is of course nonsense when a students is likely to hit top notes on however many they take. DS kept up History too, simply because he liked it and had a really good teacher whose lessons he enjoyed. In fact the unexpected consequence has been a greater ability to write fluent essays for tutorials than a number of his peers (according to his tutors, not him!). Advice is too often far too general on these threads, and can be poor because of it.

Aargh, tripped up by the A* again!

You could add to Titchy's excellent list of questions,would she prefer a mainly theoretical course, or one which takes a Practice or Case based approach.

From what I've heard, Cambridge is the former, for example. Many of the red bricks offer the latter.

@goodbyestranger There are bound to be those - and the OP's DD sounds like one of them - who can afford to take more risks, such as doing the BMAT only.

I'd like to think this is true but having seen the Dc's who were rejected by Oxbridge, Durham and Med schools last year I wonder whether this is still the case. For example there was one girl on Med thread that I think got 4 offers and she had to work incredibly hard just to get her school to predict the A required (I think it was Chemistry)- so grades marginal, then there was one boy who had applied (and I believed was interviewed at Cambridge) - stellar grades who did not get one offer.

The Durham thread (this year's cohort) seemed to be full of very talented DC with A* grades who didn't get offered places whereas other DC were offered places at lower grades to firm their places.

I don’t think it’s ‘mumsnet lore’ when it’s what some unis and my d’s grammar (who have a high number of successful medical applicants every year. No university requires 4 A levels for medicine, and while academic grades are hugely important they’re not the only thing that secures a place - generally the interview is the deciding factor, as there are many students that have the required academic profile.

My d started with 4 and dropped further maths. Predicted 4xA* so not clutching at straws. She could have carried it on. But she had a part time job which paid her enough to run a car and travel, plus she was able to talk about the transferable skills she practiced and demonstrated. Involvement with extracurricular stuff at school. The medicine application process in itself is very time consuming. Finding and attending work shadowing/experience/placements - again time consuming and difficult to find in many areas. Training for a sport which she competes at national level plus some coaching. Keeping up to date with medical news and issues. Had an article published. Reading around. Plus having a social life and a boyfriend.

Just because our experience differs from others doesn’t mean that it’s ‘poor advice’. Some of the advice here is from people applying 5-6 years ago, the application process is changing all the time.

The poor advice I'm referring to isn't A Level specific HostessTrolley and I have to say that my own DCs' super selective grammar advised at least four A levels for med school applications, without insisting on four for anyone else. So clearly grammar schhol approaches differ. And yes, what I said in relation to four A Levels factored in extra curricular, social life, job etc. Some DC manage all that and more - a good training for medical life. That's sort of the point, rather than the extra A* in itself.

I don't think the main points about applications have changed at all really. The changes are to do with the individual academic requirements between schools. Obviously there are also more places available now, but that won't affect the things which a strong applicant needs to decide on - the most competitive schools are still the most competitive and still use the BMAT.

oneteen Durham has shut down its med school. As far as other subjects go the chink in the armour is generally GCSEs, especially for the most applied to subjects such as History etc.

All I can say is that over the years at our school, there are rarely any surprises as to who gets into the most competitive schools, and it probably is fair to say that they all have a bit more to offer than purely the academic, but by definition those have to be really very strong. The less competitive - or different - schools have very different criteria, so it doesn't surprise me at all that those with very good communication skills and masses of relevant experience scoop four offers. But this OP's DD is clearly very strong academically (A* rather than A), and so I'm posting accordingly.

Managed to type school this time!

Hostess, but surely your DD's job was the alternative to a fourth A level.

DDs sports commitments probably made a job impossible, but it was perfectly possible to fit in studying. (I think till year 11, she managed all her homework on the tube.) This would not apply to your DD, but mine was staggered at fellow students who claim to have worked so so hard at A level, without job, obvious extra-curricular etc. A University workload then becomes a real step up.

I agree with Stranger about a fourth A level allowing breadth. You may not know when the analytical and essay writing skills that come with history will be useful, but they will. (It almost certainly helped non medic but mathematical son ace the language section of the graduate admissions test/GMAT, even though for him it was by far his most challenging A level.) Similarly my guess is that the British med student on some sort of placement who helped my daughter when she was taken down a mountain on a blood wagen, kept French up to A level. Whilst for DD it helped keep the doors to alternative, more mathematical, degrees open.

I think Fergus the Frog's advice is excellent. I would perhaps add that it is worth looking at placements, and how varied they are. Bristol, where DD is, has a really good mix of urban and rural, large hospitals and small, and everything in between. A car is not essential, but it is a huge help.

The problem with UKCAT is that it is a timed test, so not great for bright kids who are not fast. It is also a long test, so dyslexics, like DD, are likely to find that extra time does not help as they are brain dead before it kicks in. Practice does seem to make perfect, and a boy we knew who practiced for an hour every day for six months, came in the top 2%, and gained 4 offers, yet his subsequent progress does not suggest he is naturally top of the year.

FWIW DDs very selective private school seemed to assume people took both. Take UKCAT early and if you get a high score you have more options, if not, or if you want to go to Oxbridge/UCL/Imperial or another BMAT school, work like blazes for the BMAT. DD was warned that a couple of strong A* applicants each year failed to get places, and this was certainly true in her year. One got a place at a very competitive med school on reapplication, whilst the other changed their mind about what they wanted to do. Despite MN views on private school spoonfeeding, I was not aware of things like UKCAT practice. The help was probably one step removed., as in you are bright kids, this is what you need to research, now go away and do it.

DD got school comments on her PS, but it remained quite individual and slightly angular. But then, they can't expect a very polished PS from a dyslexic. It was also shown to a rural doctor friend who mentored local state medicine applicants, to check that nothing was obviously missing.

This is the list of intercalated degrees available in the UK www.intercalate.co.uk/ There are some really interesting options, that will give real depth to understanding for people who want to, say, specialise in paediatrics; women's health, emergency medicine, radiology, ethics, sport etc. A course which allows you to study at elsewhere at a national centre of expertise is worth giving priority to.

Blood wagon sounds very scary Needmoresleep.

Hah...there was a couple of years where DD did not need to do any shadowing as she saw plenty of the inside of hospitals as a patient. Weird, she had no sports injuries for a decade, then they all came at once. This one was particularly annoying as someone ran into her on an empty piste.

That said she was not so injured that she was not able to clock that a ski season in the Alps as a medic might be fun, and ask the girl a few questions. Probably great experience for someone wanting to specialise in trauma, so one reason to keep up French.

Can anyone tell me if Cambridge accepts the August BMAT? Of the two, it is probably her favourite.

Yes it does but then it doesn't set as much store on the BMAT as Oxford. Statistically, Cambridge is easier to get into than Oxford (18% success rate as opposed to 14.5%), so a good choice for those who prefer it anyway!

How do you know if a medical school will or will not allow one to study elsewhere to intercalcate? Some websites seem to say that the degree is five years or six years if you intercalcate (which seems to mean that you can intercalcate at the university in question), but how do you know if you can go elsewhere after your third year and then come back? Are there places that won't let you defer a year if you wanted to intercalcate somewhere else? Or is it a matter of encouragement. If the degree appears to offer an intercalcation option, where do you find that they won't let you go elsewhere (maybe I am just missing it, but the discussion often seems to assume you are intercalcating at that university, understandably, but not sure I see the fine print).

Intercalate means you stay at the same university, just spending a year doing different modules so you can get a BSc degree along the way. You don't go elsewhere then come back.

Most medical schools will allow students to undertake an intercalated degree at a different institution, as long as they can get the other institution to take them. However, I don't think you can do this if you're on a six-year course including a compulsory "integrated" intercalated degree (UCL, Imperial, Edinburgh), just like you can't do the third year of a 3+3 medicine degree (St Andrews, Oxford, Cambridge) at a different institution.

Titchy, it varies. Some dont allow intercalation at all. Some, I think Nottingham is an example, require you to stay at the same University. Others let you go elsewhere. The link I posted has a list of intercalations available to students from other medical schools.

Bristol, for example, lets you intercalate elsewhere as long as they do not offer the subject you want to study, and providing you are making reasonable progress in your course. I think about a third intercalate.

It was quite an important element in DDs choice of med school. Now fingers are crossed that she gets the course she wants

Its been a while ago since we looked around Imperial (My DD was considering Medicine but changed her mind) but I know their program allowed external students at other Med/Vet schools to do their intercalated 1yr BSc program - not much help but I am sure the information would be on the various Uni websites.

If your DD is considering Cambridge, have a good look at the course programme to make sure it has the right mix of patient contact and academic content for her. Its quite different to many med schools having very late patient contact so she would need to make sure she is ok with that.

I asked my d about intercalation at imperial - it’s her firmed course. Her impression is that you can intercalate elsewhere if the course you really want to do isn’t available internally, but in general students are encouraged to stay at imperial.

Hostess, sounds like Bristol. Cynics might say they want the fees!

Being able to go to where the expertise is, is nice if you know what interests you. So friends of DD seem to want to study child development (a Bristol strength), women's health (some good courses in London) and so on.

One tip is to have a good look at the link giving options towards the start of the second year, and perhaps consider going to some open days that year. Not all have open days, but Barts and Imperial did, which we discovered slightly by chance, and which gave DD a really useful insight into what they were looking for (one course she was considering turns out to be hugely competitive, so she may not bother as it is not her first choice) and what she wanted to achieve. Open days were in January and application deadlines are often at the end of January, so it is worth doing them a year early.

That’s good to know, thank you x

Dd was quite enthusiastic about anatomy and developmental physiology when she was keen on Kings, as that was one of their options. We were talking last night about done of the (light, holiday lol) reading she’s been doing over the summer, and she said she’s finding some of the medical ethics issues interesting and might look at taking that forward as an intercalation option

This is probably a daft question, but are the 5 year medical courses those without an intercalated year? Do the majority of students feel the extra year is beneficial/worthwhile?