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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

General advice for wannabe medics/dentists?

94 replies

cardamoncoffee · 28/07/2019 11:43

Dd has just sat her GCSE's and is thinking of applying for medicine or dentistry. To date they have had little to nothing wrt careers advice, so wanted to ask what the general expectation is now for applicants? I know experience in a care setting is essential, should I be advising her to sort out some voluntary work from now, or is the 5 day work experience considered sufficient?

Any general advice greatly appreciated.

OP posts:
cardamoncoffee · 31/07/2019 17:28

Chuckie thanks for that, is the general advice for dentistry the same as medicine, in terms of experience in a care setting?

OP posts:
MedSchoolRat · 31/07/2019 17:32

Admissions are prone to Freedom of Info requests; they have to have a transparent admission process and be able to demonstrate they followed it.

imho, admissions a series of hurdles, from the time admissions office at a Uni starts to process it. 3 example hurdles are:

  1. Admissions do a basic grading of application to see if sufficiently high achiever, and meets their other basic requirements. The bar can be as low as "8 adequate-grade GCSEs"; doing A-level in Chemistry, minimum score on UCAT & gramatically correct written in English personal statement. Pass this hurdle -> interview offer

  2. scored at Interview. Fixed number of Highest scorers are offered places subject to getting A-levels over minimum stated threshold. Eg, if they have 220 places they may know they should make 330 offers to get 220 acceptances.

  3. get the minimum A-level results.

Typical ratios I hear are that 1/3 get offered interview, 1/3 of those interviewed get offer places Subject to achieving grades.

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2019 17:46

My DD had no burning reason to be a doctor & not even sure she was ever asked. She had a week at GPS and 3 days in hospital and years of volunteering at a stables. And a part time job at a supermarket. But 2 of hers never even read her PS, was all on that UCAT.
To whittle it down I'd say look at style of learning first - PBL, CBL, integrated. Then location. How far away to do they want to be or don't they care. Then when get GCSEs see where you fit - if they are amazing then Cardiff is a good one to look at. If only slightly good then ones like Sheffield or Exeter or Bristol where just need to pass the 7 A threshold. Then look at various different scenarios relating to a good UCAT/BMAT and a bad one. It's still possible to get a place with the minimum GCSEs, AAB prediction and an average UCAT.
Also be aware that Sheffield for one give a lower grade if you get an A/A* in your EPQ. So can get AAB and still get in. Sure others do too.
And finally, take everything we have all told you with a hefty pinch of salt as it will probably all change again by next year !!!

Decorhate · 31/07/2019 18:31

When we went to Open Days virtually every medical school claimed to be one of just a handful doing full body dissections!

Not sure how important it is really. They do dissections very early on in the course. I’d say the hospital placements are ultimately more useful

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2019 18:38

But if you can get both 😁. My DD does 'enjoy' dissection and finds it fantastic for seeing the anatomy in place. They can look at the other cadavers and see how everyone has bits in different places and how they connect to other parts. She finds the hands on aspect invaluable but it's not for everyone. And she likes the fact they learn about the heart for example, them dissect the heart and then go on a heart ward to practice heart examinations on real patients (who must be very kind !). So it all links together. She'd have hated PBL, but one of her friends elsewhere loves it.
In the end they all become Drs.

Bimkom · 31/07/2019 18:42

Fantastic mumsneedwine very useful. Obviously we will need to check out to see there are no changes, but at least it is a starting point

Chuckie88 · 31/07/2019 18:49

Work experience for dentistry is difficult to get as the number of opportunities is less. So the advice DS2 got was to at least show experience in a care setting but focus on the things that also matter for dentistry such as understanding the patient care needs, patient confidentiality, NHS values etc.

The only thing DS2 found strange was when Birmingham asked for written evidence of work experience. I guess it stops people making up stuff.

M0RVEN · 31/07/2019 18:51

is the general advice for dentistry the same as medicine, in terms of experience in a care setting?

Yes it is. Your DD needs to start looking for this now, it can be very hard to arrange and take a long time ( many months ) if you don’t have contacts.

It shows far more commitment to have volunteered in a hospital every week for 2 years than to have spent a week one summer with daddy who is professor of surgery.

Also, don’t you want her find out now if she likes working in a health care setting , rather than finding out next summer and having only a few weeks to decide if she wants to apply ? Remember the closing date is 15 October and most schools want to have the forms into them by end September, so they can do the references. So it’s only 14 months from now.

Dentistry can sometimes be harder to get into as their are far fewer dental schools in the Uk ( 15 last time I checked). The grades are usually the same but there’s often more applicants for each place.

For dentistry she needs to spend some time in a general dental practice as well as other general care settings.

My best advice is to do the UKCAT test next summer as a practice.

Most courses only interview applicants who get in the top 50% of scores and then only offer a place to half those who they interview (very roughly, it varies from course to course ).

So getting the correct A level grades is only the starting point. Half the applicants will fall at the second hurdle of the UKCAT. I don’t know the proportions for BMAT but it will be similar.

Doing it twice increases her chances of getting the best score and shows her who much work she needs to do for second time around.

Relevant work experience will give her skills that will help in the interview, especially if it’s MMI.

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2019 18:52

For Vet Med they have to produce a reference from each work experience placement ! Think lots of people must lie a bit 😳

Bimkom · 31/07/2019 19:01

Can they take the UCAT this summer (assuming they are applying for 2021 entry) as practice - and not have it influence anything!!??!!
That does sound like a brilliant idea.

Bimkom · 31/07/2019 19:02

Could you do the BMAT like that too??

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2019 19:04

You could take it this year and it won't affect anything. BUT it could affect confidence. I'd suggest having a look at it and have a go at the practice papers on line. And if they ace it this year they might slack off next year - can't carry it forward.
My DD did 3 weeks of Medify (£30 I think for a month) after her AS levels and did well enough - didn't go on any paid courses (too pricey). It's hard but doable with practice (or so DD tells me as I tried it and I was useless)

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2019 19:05

And BMAT too. Not sure when last date to register is for this year ?

ProfessorLayton1 · 31/07/2019 20:43

Really good advice so far.. please read the university requirements carefully. You need to apply to universities based on your strengths - GCSE's, A level predictions, work experience ( don't really think this is a deal breaker if you have strong academics) , UKCAT ( weightage for this varies eg., Newcastle, Kings - high UKCAT) , BMAT etc.,
Do the UKCAT and BMAT early ( note - oxford requires you do BMAT in October) so you can select universities depending on all the above criteria. It is easy to select the universities if your academics are impeccable but really need to be strategic in choosing the universities if your academics are not strong.
Dentistry is really difficult to get into - requires a lot of work experience which is difficult to get..
I was told anything which shows a good hand eye coordination skills may be regarded favourably in the application process - piano/ instruments playing, pottery etc., Not sure how true this is though..

MedSchoolRat · 31/07/2019 21:27

"The BMAT can be taken on 31 August 2019 or on 30 October 2019 (entry deadline about 30 days earlier)" are notes I made maybe 2 months ago.

DD found loads of free BMAT & UCAT material she is confident will prepare her. I'm glad she's only working on them this summer. The material & strategies will be fresh & her confidence high when she takes the actual exams.

Bimkom · 31/07/2019 21:37

Is somebody able to give me a bit of a summary about the strengths and weaknesses of PBL versus CBL versus integrated. I gather some people just "like" one over the other, but a bit more of an idea of why one might do so would be great.
I had a quick chat to DS today - although in a rush, as he is running back and forth to the work experience this week, and it is quite long days (although not as long as the real thing!). I get the impression that he things that, Oxbridge aside, he would feel more comfortable in a city, having grown up in London, rather than a campus (although a city outside London). Would that mean we were looking at Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Bristol, Cardiff, Edinburgh (although Scotland seems so far!). Or are some of these not actually in the cities in their name. This is where my very shaky English geography hits the buffers.

Ash39 · 31/07/2019 21:43

This has been a really interesting read. As a dentist who studied in the 90's, it's scary how much harder it is nowadays to get into these courses. What with A*grades/UKcat etc etc.

What I will say is this. I work with newly graduated dentists doing their vocational training year straight after uni. I have interviewed hundreds of them...

The ones with the highest grades or the fanciest work experience placements aren't the ones that fair best in the real world. Dentistry is full of challenges, we regularly self appraise ourselves, sometimes treatments don't work out as well as we would like, and we have to deal with an anxious, stressed out public a lot of the time.
To be a dentist, you need to be a people person, with resilience, with a good work ethic, who can take criticism ( a worry I have with these A* pupils is that no one has ever told them they need to improve/or that that filling/crown wasn't actually that great).

I'm sorry i can't offer advice re the uni admission process, but please think long and hard if it really is the right subject for you, because we absolutely NEED the right people coming into our profession that show integrity, concern and empathy.

Decorhate · 31/07/2019 22:44

Bimkom I think all those are in the city itself. Some may be in the suburbs but they are smaller than London so still close to the action. I’d also add in Sheffield & Newcastle. I’m not sure about the merits or otherwise of the different teaching methods. Dd did think that PBL & CBL were quite similar

Bimkom · 31/07/2019 22:59

What about Nottingham - is that a city or a campus?

Bimkom · 31/07/2019 23:01

If one wanted to go and see a campus to see what it was like - as I don't think I even know what a campus university is like (where I grew up all the universities were in the cities!), which would people recommend (eg closest to London, to get a feel, most campus like)?

Chuckie88 · 31/07/2019 23:31

Ash - It really is frightening how tough both dentistry and medicine are to get offers if you aren’t strategic about your application but I wouldn’t try to discourage anyone from trying. DS1 is loving his time at Leeds medicine while DS2 is really motivated to the offer grades for Birmingham dentistry. Their experience showed me that resilience and sometimes bloody mindedness are key to the process.

On other threads it’s been suggested that you see this as a two year process as there’s a chance of something gong wrong first time round. My DC know friends who didn’t get in first time but dusted themselves down and tried again with success having learnt some lessons.

The other thing to be prepared for is just how long it takes between the UCAS application and getting the offer. It can go right up April when thought should have turned towards the actual exams. DC will get down that friends already have offers while they might still be waiting for interviews.

Decorhate · 01/08/2019 09:03

Bimkom we went to Brighton as we could get there easily by train.

Re Nottingham- it is definitely a campus uni though obv Nottingham itself is nearby & quite lively.

mumsneedwine · 01/08/2019 09:46

Nottingham is a beautiful campus with a very good nightlife if my DD is anything to go by. It's quite cheap too and has a cat cafe. Birmingham is campus too as is UEA - sure many others are but these are the ones I know. Southampton easy to get to or Bristol and the new one in Kent too. Most will have open days in Sept time so could try a few then.

SirTobyBelch · 01/08/2019 13:09

Is somebody able to give me a bit of a summary about the strengths and weaknesses of PBL versus CBL versus integrated.

Unfortunately, like "integrated" and "early clinical experience", terms like PBL (problem-based learning) and CBL (case-based learning) can mean whatever an individual institution wants them to mean. What Bristol medical school calls CBL, for example, isn't what I would call CBL.

Broadly, it goes like this...

In PBL, students are given a clinical scenario ("problem", although the word is misleading) that raises a number of points that students need to learn in order to understand what's going on. For example, you might have a patient calling 999 because he has chest pains, being picked up by an ambulance, in which an ECG reveals ST segment elevation, arriving at hospital, having blood samples taken for tests, receiving reperfusion therapy (alteplase or percutaneous coronary intervention), being monitored, having blood test results reported/interpreted, having drugs prescribed, being discharged from hospital and being referred to specialist clinics. Students then have to come up with an explanation of what was happening at each stage (e.g. how the infarct arose, what risk factors the patient had, etc.), why particular tests were performed, why particular treatments were used, and so on. It makes everything directly relevant to clinical practice but some students dislike it because they're not directly told what to learn.

CBL uses clinical cases - which might be real or made-up - with patient documentation, test results, radiological images, etc. Depending on the stage at which it's being used, this might either (a) form the basis for a process like PBL, where students have to find out what all the stuff they've been given means and how it would be used in forming a diagnosis and management plan, or (b) provide triggers for students to identify patients on the ward with similar presentations and go through their history, examination, diagnosis, etc., to see how such patients are managed in real life and what differential diagnoses might be possible for similar presentations. At a much more basic level, students might just be given a case and a set of questions related to it, which they then have to answer on the basis of their lectures and other learning activities through the week.

The point of both is to get students into the habit of reasoning rather than recalling. Although it's might appear straightforward to apply a recall-based approach to diagnosing a patient with chest pains, being able to do it without potentially missing important details really requires them to be reasoning through very basic questions like: what are the structures in the chest? which of these have sensory nerves (and therefore might be hurting)? what could cause these to hurt (including damage to neighbouring tissues that don't have sensory nerves)? and so on. Practising clinicians don't do this consciously or visibly/audibly, but their reasoning is based on their long experience of applying knowledge of anatomy & physiology, considering a full range of possible differentials, working out which can be excluded on the basis of available evidence and which need to be tested for, etc. Doctors might do it almost subconsciously but they do it. Students need to work their way up to this by doing it consciously, and explaining what they're doing.

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