Oxbridge (probably been done to death) extra curricular for personal statements?

[fiveanddime]

Sorry if this has been done a million times

Ds has recently announce he’d like to try for Cambridge after an Oxbridge talk at school. I honestly don’t know how realistic it is. He goes to an ordinary northern comp which has had an occasional child go before but there isn’t anyone in the school who is experienced in applications. I read that the 6th form in London that got a lot of places this year has 5 non teaching staff members dedicated to applications.

He is in y10 doing 10 GCSEs ( one as an independent candidate in his own time) and got 7-9s in his y10 mocks. He is best at essay subjects and can work hard enough/retain information for sciences, language etc.
It’s not unrealistic that he will get 8/9 in the majority of subjects (but so will everyone else who applies I imagine)

Anyway, he doesn’t do anything exciting out of school. One none team sport which he isn’t competitive in. He reads, plays games, visits friends and family and has a part time job etc but no teams, no competitions, no DofE, no interesting travel or holidays. There is time yet as he is only y10, but what sort of thing should he be doing that won’t make it sound like an ad in the personals “I have a GSOH AND enjoy meals in and out, walks in the countryside and the cinema.”

Basis, not basie!

My info is probably very out of date Sarah. My only experience is from when I was at school in the early ‘90s. Anybody applying to medicine or oxbridge was under a lot of pressure to rack up extra curricular stuff. I do know someone who forced their unwilling children up to high music grades purely because you used to be able to use them as ucas points but that was a few years ago too.

fiveanddime it is probably true that a lot of Oxbridge applicants have fairly impressive extra curricular achievements but not because they've been put under pressure, simply because they're doing things which interest them and they're high achievers by definition. I've certainly been hugely impressed by a lot of things my DCs' friends have done. But these are clever kids - and I don't find it to be true that the impressive achievements are the monopoly of the better off either. That isn't to say that the achievements helped them get their place, they probably didn't. So while there will be plenty of applicants who don't do much else with their time other than hang out with friends (entirely legitimate), there are also plenty of young people applying who are actually seriously impressive on the extra curricular front.

Exactly SarahandQuack. So for Eng Lit staging a play or for Law winning a national moot etc etc or for PPE debating esp relevant subjects.

Sorry, not sure what you mean here?

@fiveanddime - I think it really is different now. I did admissions for several years, until 2018.

In my subject (English Literature), if a student mentioned an extra curricular activity such as going to the theatre or taking part in staging a play, I might ask a question about it

This is what you said SarahandQuack so I'm not quite sure what you don't understand. Taking part in or producing a play would be of some interest to an English tutor and in the same way winning a moot competition might well be of interst to a Law tutor or a win in a debating competition on a political or philosophical or economic subject might be worth a question from a PPE tutor. I don't think what I said was too oblique, merely examples like yours.

Ah, no, that's not what I meant! That's why I wasn't clear. Sorry, probably my fault.

A 'vocational' subject is one where there is a pretty direct route into practising the subject studied. Examples would be medicine, law, nursing - that sort of thing.

English Lit isn't actually a vocational subject, so an admissions interviewer in English Lit won't usually be very interested in hearing about a student who staged a play. The interviewer might, if they were struggling for conversation, ask a question about staging a play, in the same way they might use any other point in the personal statement. But they would not generally (to the best of my knowledge) take the fact that a candidate had staged plays into account when deciding how to value that candidate's application.

Does that make sense?

Yes it makes perfect sense. I'm sure the thing wouldn't feature in the do we offer or not equation, nevertheless questions about the 'extras' do certainly get asked. Is all I meant - like you! I guess at a more subliminal level the response to a 'extras' question might interest a tutor and that whole thing about feeling an applicant would be good to teach isn't especially quantifiable. But that is oblique!

My two, bright but not gifted, went to Cambridge from the same ordinary comp (Further Education College for sixth form). In my limited experience, it is enthusiasm for their subject which counts, not extra curricular activities.
I think applicants from a Northern Comp are exactly the kind of students colleges are hoping to attract. Your son has a much better chance of an offer than someone from a London fee paying school.

Yes, I take your point - it is probably not possible to separate out all the different elements of why a candidate is impressive.

But I do think it's important to stress that extra-curriculars in isolation won't be evaluated.

Don’t forget that his life is n’t restricted to aiming for success in oxbridge admissions. Your DS’s engagement in extracurricular activities (including part-time work and having fun) will count in other ways beyond and after his degree.

However Oxbridge academics are only assessing academic ability, evidence of interest in the subject and capacity to benefit from the tutorial system. All relative to the level of the other applicants of course and by necessity judged only from a snapshot that might not be representative.

As already said by PPs, many students at these sort of universities are very energetic as well as talented and often rather competitive and that will be reflected in what they have achieved outside their direct studies.
If he is looking at sixth form extracurriculars, he will get something out of any activity that helps develop informed discursive skills and willingness to try the unfamiliar.

some candidates will have had extraordinary opportunities to boast of

Any opportunities my DC have had they've created themselves, at pretty much nil cost (unfortunately they never got music opportunities because of cost at the time). And 'boast'!

I have a DD applying to Oxford this year who told me yesterday that she's intending to put a fairly fat paragraph at the end of her statement saying the stuff she's done. She's done that stuff from fairly early on because she likes mixing things up (schoolwork/ other) and the amount and breadth of things she's done/ won certainly proves she can manage a heavy diary and still get top grades. That's useful for Oxford to know. It's also good to know she has plenty of safety valves to deal with the pressure. Beyond that, Durham and her other choices clearly quite like Head Girl/ sport/ national wins etc so it covers that base too and with all her choices - since it will be pretty clear she's applying to Oxbridge - it avoids making her look so arrogant that she think's she'll be in with a shout at Oxford (she doesn't). Some of her choices may not even read the statement, but then the format won't matter either way.

Goodbyestranger that is a good point,
Examples like your DD show that they have not had to work to the limit of their capacity to achieve their academic level (as well of course impressive achievements from a non academic point of view).

As well as students like your DD, others will have singleminded dedication to their degree subject. How that then serves them in non academic life is always difficult to judge prospectively.

I personally am wary (this is not as an admissions tutor) of extra curricular achievements obviously packaged for the purpose of showing off (US college style) rather than done through genuine enthusiasm and enjoyment.

DDs PS was essentially a description of her developing fascination and engagement with her subject from about yr 9 on - including the tech GCSE and her EPQ, it doesn't all have to be extracurricular! There was just a sentence or two about other stuff - DofE in a 'good for overcoming challenges in a group' type of way (in about that many words) and a brief mention that her main hobby was watersports.

AFAIK very little attention was paid to her PS, though that may be partly because all 5 of her ucas choices interviewed for her subject. One of the Cambridge blokes evidently used it to glean that she was mostly interested in electronics already and therefore the questioning was on a different aspect of engineering; the Southampton chap in 'recruit' mode noticed the watersports.

Anyway... none of what she wrote about was done 'for her personal statement', it was done because of her genuine interests.

Five depending upon where you live, your DS may be interested in the master classes which Cambridge offers year 12 students in a couple of years time. They trot along for a couple of lectures in theology, classics, natural sciences or whatever they fancy applying for, along with an admissions talk. Parents can also attend an admission talk, which emphasises the need for supra curricular activity rather than extra curricular stuff like D of E. You've been given some good advice here.

DD had literally one line on her PS about her extra-curriculars. The rest was highly technical, subject-specific stuff.

I agree with all the above (just on a small point above you do still get UCAS onts for grades 6, 7, and 8 music but unless you are applying to a very low ranking university and have got very low A level grades you will not be using/counting those music UCAS points although my daughter in a law firm application did have me get out her piano, cello and singing grades as they wanted total UCAS points so at that stage it did help a bit).

I know Oxbridge has come down in the world recently, xenia, but I think even in the service of boasting about your DD's grades, you'd recognise it's not a 'very low ranking university'.

Literally not what xenia said Sarah.

Exactly. I said if you were applying for a lower ranking university and you ahve low A level grades you can boost things with UCAS points for grade 6 and above music grades (so irrelevant to this thread).

Your school should be attached to a particular Cambridge (and indeed Oxford) college ( it's usually done by area) so see if you can find that out, or speak to the school. They often take DCs from state schools (especially those with little track record) under their wing and arrange visits. Worth looking into, as it breaks down anxiety in the DCs.

it has been done to death - you could get better information reading old threads or looking at this www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduate/open-days.

Look at www.applytocambridge.com/shadowing/apply/ as he has time to go. I dont know if they could find him a theology student to shadow (there are only about 100 and it depends if any have volunteered) but he'd get to stay in a college and talk to real life Cambridge students. He'd be taken to lectures in some subject.

Actual Cambridge admission staff hang out on the Student Room website - go there and get guaranteed accurate information. It will tell you the only interest in extra curriculars are (1) is something done to such a high level it may distract from your course (and Cambridge has taken people who, say, play international sport but they do want to see it doesnt get in the way of your studies) and (2) do you have something (anything) to help you relax and deal with an intense workload. Compared to academic things these are minor considerations. If an admissions tutor asks you about such things they are probably using the question as a way to get you to relax.

As for DofE no-one ever mentions that it's designed for, and quite good at, developing skills that are useful at university (and in life anywhere). I especially like the emphasis on "no-one left behind" after reading about teenagers who would not have died if their "friends" had seen they got home safely. Of course there are other ways to develop such skills and it certainly isnt going to weigh in the balance at Oxbridge. No need to force someone into it - but often good for young people.

Went to a Yr11 day at Cambridge and they were very clear that they are not interested in extra curricular activities not least because they are impossible to “grade” against each other but most importantly they are dependant on the opportunities available to the individual as a result of their socio-economic circumstance so are inherently an unfair measure of suitability. What they ARE interested is super curricular activities... the learning and reading and interaction with a subject relevant to their desired course which is not within the curricula of their A’levels. So don’t start playing a sport or instrument but do immerse yourself in the subject outside sixth form classrooms.