A-levels for History at Oxbridge

[chopc]

My son is a keen history student and plans to study that at University. Sitting GCSE's thus summer. His AL choices were Maths, Economics, History and English.

However he is also a keen musician and would like to swap English to Music.

So he will then have two non facilitating subjects (Economics and Music)
Would this matter when applying for Russel Group Unis including Oxbridge?

Any advise will be appreciated

Oh and to echo sentiment upthread, I also wish I’d done Maths instead of Music.

Thank you again. His school encourages four AL but if we insist, he can do three. They also encourage you to do subjects you enjoy whilst taking Uni requirements into consideration. I think it's best to start with three and drop one. It's difficult to know how good he is at maths. He got a A* in GCSE last year and on course to get the same in Further Maths this year. But he is no whizz and has to work hard and is nowhere near the top of his class.
From what his teacher says, he is a natural at English and he cannot do any better in History as he has consistently achieved highly in this.

Of course things can change and he is very welcome to choose something different from History at Uni and a different career path.

General consensus seems to be that two facilitating subjects are enough and he has a genuine interest in economics and would enjoy it. I will leave him to choose between English and Music if it won't hinder his chances at a top Uni in the future.

@BasiliskStare - general advise seems to be you have a higher chance of getting an offer in the first place if you have four AL. Esp if going to a private school where there is opportunity to do so. Do you disagree?

The problem with four is that they'll likely base your offer on top grades in all four, eg A, A, A star, Astar, whereas if he takes just three, his offer might be A, A, Astar and easier to actually achieve.

Dangling, this can happen in science at Cambridge but I don’t think Oxford does it, and don’t know the extent to which it happens in humanities at Cambridge, especially since AS levels were got rid of.

And even if someone were to get a four A level offer, you don’t know if only taking three would have prevented them from getting that offer in the first place. As in two strong A* star applicants from similar schools, one with three A levels, one with four. Who gets the place?

That's a fair point, Need.

The students I know this year holding offers needing all four grades are scientists. Maybe worth a phone call to ask the specific point about 3 vs 4?

Yes. Double maths in an academic selective school for Cambridge level scientists is nothing like the same amount of work as, say, English and History. Very different for a pupil in school with indifferent maths teaching in a more mixed ability group who may be having to plug gaps on their own.

Starting with four does give flexibility. DS really did not realise he would find the step up in history so difficult. It was very useful that his eventual grade did not matter. And later on, when sitting the aptitude test for graduate admissions, having taken both maths and a humanity to A level probably did no harm.

My 5 who are at or have graduated from university did 4 in LS, then AS levels which I think are largely not now done and my twins were the last year to do them, and then all 5 dropped one subject after the AS exam and did 3 A levels. Ifyou can manage to get good grades in 4 A levels that's very good. If not then you are better off for many uniersities and careers having 3 good A levels rather than grades which are not quite as good in 4.

My son had a hard job choosing whether to drop economics or music after AS exams. Music was a guaranteed at least A in the A level as he did well in the AS exam and had a music scholarship, was music prefect etc. he did loads of practical music in upper sixth but not the A2 and did enjoy the economics and got an A. I really don't think in his case it would have mattered either way as he had 2 other facilitating subjects - history and geog.

Perhaps look at what grades people got last year in english and music in case the school and teachers there tend to result in higher grades in one more than the other.

Not sure if this helps, but DS has an offer for History at Oxford and is taking 3 AL's in History, Biology and Fine Art.

@chopc - DS ( independent school) started out with 4 AL. Which were History , English , TP and Maths. Dropped maths , because ( he took maths one year early at GCSE and got an A star so - on paper - good ) then had to do another year of maths because school would not let you drop it - got into A level year and love him as I do - he took four times explaining rather than one or two which the better mathematicians needed. He dropped it because school said it will take so much effort to get a really good grade , why not concentrate on the things you are good at instead - A level maths for someone who is not talented / of that mind set is a big step up - as indeed is history or english)

But to answer your question - Ds ( now 22 so information may be out of date ) 3 a levels was enough for oxford + interviews etc. Most of his cohort who did four were science, science + maths + further maths. Some did maths A level a year early - DS didn't. Maths + history ( or other humanity essay / argument based subject ) keeps the door open for the likes of PPE or similar.

If he really wants to do history at oxford then only one experience from one son and this really is anecdote then just be very interested in history , demonstrate it and the aptitude test is important.

I would not worry about taking 4 rather than 3 ( I am talking humanities hear not science / maths / PPE / economics) based on Ds's experience , from a school who happily offered 4 - but I think I have said enough for you to judge. I will say again that DS was turned down from what he thought was a very very interesting course at LSE - but he thinks he didn't have the maths. Who knows.

I wish your son well whatever he does.

Thank you each and every one of you for taking the time to respond and answer my queries.

And thanks here too, having a year 11 son who is planning to start maths, history, Econ, geog next year, probably with the intention of dropping one after a year and also with a view to reading history.

He spent ages weighing up his a level choices and has ended up with his first three being the most popular ones in his school, in that order (well, excluding further maths )

Go to their next open day and ask.

If he loves music, and isn't ready to leave it behind academically, then he should take it. A great deal can change between now and next year.

He should only take 4 subjects if he can still meet the entry requirements
( have not read all the responses, but I'm sure someone has mentioned it)

My DD is at a top performing state sixth form college with 60 - 70 Oxbridge offers this year. The only ones taking 4 A levels are either future medics taking maths alongside triple science or those taking maths & further maths. Three A levels is now standard, especially for arts and humanities.

Stickerocks - hoe interesting. Do they tend to take 4 for the first year and drop one, or start on 3?

A few started with 4 and dropped one by Christmas, but they were strongly discouraged from taking 4. My DD (mainly grades 8 & 9) was advised to do 3 subjects very well and not waste time on a 4th. Don't forget that many colleges are no longer offering AS levels and the new style A levels are based on final exams. They don't need a 4th subject.

Michaelahpurple if your DS currently wishes to take history, but could be swayed to economics in the future, I would consider only taking maths, history and geography at this stage. Economics is not a pre-requisite for economics at university, whilst most insist on A level maths. Meanwhile geography is more essay based than economics and so may give him a stronger base in a history application if he only decides to take 3 subjects.

Interesting Sticklerocks.

I do think that we are at a mid point between the old a level system and new - many of the schools round here start with 4 dropping to three buyback insuspect 3, possibly with an epq will become the norm (except for further maths), as it was when I was doing the damn things, all the way back in the 1980s.

Meanwhile, my son’s school insists the whole 275 cohort starts with 4, with apparently 2/3rds dropping one in the summer, which feels a bit pointless. Having. The option to try one out to, say Christmas, does make sense, especially for new subjects.

The old thing about doing three well instead of four less well is fine until you come up against kids who can do four well, as plenty can.

@goodbyestranger - yes I wouldn't disagree with that. Trouble is my one particular son was probably going to have to spend so much time on his maths it became a bit of a no brainer ( see what I did there ) for him to give it up Had he chosen a different 4th subject possibly a different decision. For those who are good at maths it is ( I think ) a fantastic A level to take. Purely anecdotally - for those whose DCs want to apply for History at Oxford DS has heard they are changing the HAT. Shorter and more concentrated on sources and inferring / interpreting and skipping out the more essay things. Not sure if he is right ( and nor is he but heard a rumour ).

In the LSE website when I looked under Law, they encourage students to do something "extra". If you have the opportunity to do four AL , I don't know how it would look if you only take three

Plus I know several people who got 4 AL offers for Cambridge 🤷🏽‍♀️

Basilisk my DCs' school (for DC2-DC7 inclusive) also had students taking four A Levels as standard plus the EPQ. DS1 did a large number of A Levels for some reason best known to himself but I strongly (and successfully) encouraged all the rest to drop the fourth on the grounds that I thought it was a daft policy. The school has reversed the policy for DC8's year (it's now three as standard plus the EPQ) so I've contented myself with strongly supporting her dropping the EPQ :) (to be fair, she's teaching herself Latin instead but I wasn't keen for her to do both). No regrets whatsoever and clearly the unis didn't care two hoots (as all their tutors told them once they got there).

Chopc - the issue of choosing to do 3 when one could do 4 and impact on Oxbridge has concerned me too. Also the general debate about offers are for 3 but is one mor Eli Kelly to get an offer in the first place if doinf 4c, plus the fact that the vast majority of candidates on the freedom of information lists at Oxbridge seem to have four all male we wonder.

Goodbye’s comments are encouraging on this front!

I am hoping to get a bit more detail from ds1’s school next year about the approx third of cohort who stick with 4. Is this all the brightest or is mostly those doing further maths plus those targeting US universities (some overlap between the three groups of course!).

And I am hoping that by the time ds2 gets to year 11 (now year 8) his school will have reconsidered its 4 stance. Although one will be left with the optics point as nearly half tend to go to Oxbridge.

@Michaelahapurple - at DS's school tended to be the scientists / mathematicians doing four. Or those who were doing humanities but talented at maths ( Ds wasn't ) Best to speak to school 6th form people or university admissions people. I can only speak of one DC and one university ( Oxford) - Cambridge and other very good universities may be a very different kettle of fish. But for DS ( now 22) 3 was enough to get his place. But one example only - school admissions or university admission will advise better.

At Ds's school - those applying to US universities didn't worry about UK university applications as the advice they were given at the time was the application process is so different - don't try both in the same year. For various reasons - course and finances - DS did not even think about US universities.

DS had to do a long essay alongside exams. But I think that ( for example ) if a subject is not offered at school - so e.g. a language ( modern or ancient ) I do not know but I suspect a university would think it was very good thing that a pupil / student had studied it themselves - so I think of e.g. Anglo Saxon for English ( not taught in schools I know of ) or e.g. Latin or Greek ( where not offered in school ) for an ab initio Classics degree. Other examples are available.

My ds2 is reading History at Oxford. His A levels / Pre Us were History, German, Latin and Greek.