Worst Offenders for Unconditional Offers

[BubblesBuddy]

Looking at The Times today, they quote the newly released UCAS data regarding which universites give the most unconditonal offers. Suffolk is a staggering 83.8%. Even the much lauded Lincoln is 53.7%. RG universities are topped by Birmingham 18.9% and Nottingham 11.4%. Other RG universities are fairly negligible by comparison. Nottingham says it is now ending this practice.

On Radio 4, the Vice Chancellor or Sheffield Hallam defended offering unconditionals to the brightest applicants. He seemed relunctant to take on board that this was, in effect, marketing in a buyers market place. He did also state that they take GCSE results as an indicator of likely A level grades and they read every Personal Statement to make their unconditional offers. This appears to be contrary to the widely held belief on MN that it is only predicted grades that count.

Is there now pressure on RG and other universities to end this practice? Should they?

• [Please note: title edited by MNHQ - originally said 'Conditional Offers']

He's using it as his insurance and firming Warwick
So neither him nor you have any concerns about #shameonyouwarwick?

What happend at Warwick and the decision to shorten the bans on those concerned is appalling. But it is not the only institution affected by awful incidents. Look at NTU and Bristol’s UWE lack of action on drugs. www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-nottinghamshire-44238308

Meant to say racism at NTU, and this about all unis but particularly UWE not dealing with drugs. I know it’s the Tab but there’s plenty of stuff like this in the broadsheets as well.

thetab.com/uk/2017/03/30/most-popular-drugs-university-uk-36526/amp

Surely george if he uses an UiF as his back up insurance, it's no longer unconditional??

Reading that article, it sounds like NTU did take action? The young man was arrested, had a trial and it says is 'likely to lose his place'. (no idea if he did). That is hardly similar to Warwick, although I am still shocked by the behaviour of 'intelligent' young people I shouldn't be; I'm a teacher!

Piggy: Intelligence might be academic but not common sense or common decency! Young men get together and bad behaviour ensues. It’s not a new phenomenon. It’s jyst no longer tolerated.

Of course people won’t avoid Warwick based on that incident. If it’s your best offer you would be mad to avoid them because of a handful of young men you will never meet. I also suspect the university was about to get into a legal wrangle over the original length of the ban. There was no court case. I’m not sure of course, but it feels there was a turn around for a reason.

Birmingham is an outlier in the unconditionals from RG universities. This tends to look a bit desperate. As Nottingham have said they are stopping the practice, Birmingham would be very much on its own. No other RG university is anywhere near them.

Looking at the school, area a DC lives in and circumstances such as having been in care are all taken into account by Bristol. This is widening participation. Unconditionals do not necessarily take account of any of the above. They are just asking for low grades from the better students in many cases and it doesn’t reflect background, school or deprivation. The contextual grades might only be one grade lower in one A level too. Definitely not enough to take the foot off the gas.

Of course people won’t avoid Warwick based on that incident
Plenty of reports on social media that that is already happening. People are (rightly) disgusted by Warwick u-turning on their previous decision.

'There is lots of evidence that shows these lower universities don’t get many highly paid alumni and in fact there is evidence that not having a degree is a better pathway to success for some over and above a poor degree from a low end university. It just feels that some students are conned by the university sector and it should stop and there should be greater quality control.'

There is much more to the HE sector than the employability suceess of the graduates. Clearly this is important, but university is more than 'just get a good job', it's about educating citizens in critical thinking skills which will benefit society. Look at how movements have grown around things like insurance misselling - people are better informed and educated than ever and it is protective against exploitation.

If it’s your best offer you would be mad to avoid them because of a handful of young men you will never meet.

Well, some of them at least will be back next academic year. But since they have been identified, yes, it should be possible to avoid them. Remember, though, that at least one of their apoarently intended victims said that they were all part of the same friendship group and finding out what these males (not happy to describe them as 'men', personally) were really like underneath came as a shock.

Warwick is the last decision that DD is waiting for; she knows about the case and the recent events and she knows enough boorish youths to know what some can be like, so I don't think that this alone would cause her to turn down the offer of a pkace, if and when she gets one. But there are few courses for which Warwick is the be all and end all, so it's hardly a foregone conclusion that the university won't find itself being discounted now by some.

It was business journalists who alerted everyone to the PPI scandal. It started to gather speed in 2004 and Vince Cable was at the forefront of the complaints. Individuals had complained and got nowhere, educated or not. It takes influential people to move and shake.

Yes, marching, but by how many? It’s very sought after for maths, for example and mops up Oxbridge non offers. It’s also wrong to judge without knowing why the university reduced the punishment. It’s not been made public which, in some respect, is a shame. This incident won’t stop large numbers from applying and going if it’s the best place for them. Why would one incident which will not affect you stop you from going? There are alleged rapes, boorish and discriminatory behaviour at universities. They represent society which isn’t always pleasant. Nasty people are not confined to the lower classes or those not at university. There is no league table of these universities so is any university truly free of any risk at all?

I don't think the Bristol contextual offers are the same as unconditionals. My sons didn't get one (they are twins currently at Bristol) because I chose to work full time and pay school fees whreas other women don't work and don't pay fees and their children get lower offers - it is a bit of a blunt instrument - but the offers people get who are in the 40% worst schools in the country under the Bristol system are not massively low. I think they are things like AAB or ABB from schools where no one is getting high grades. They don't allow you to get in with CCC for example.

My DD had an unconditional offer last year, for the course at the uni she really wanted. The unconditional offer stopped her stressing over her exams. She still came out with A*AAB, which was enough to do the same course at pretty much any other uni (Durham gave her an offer of AAB, which she met comfortably). But having the unconditional meant she didn't self harm like she had done at GCSE exam time.

On the other hand, I teach maths ALevel, and the students with unconditional offers seem to be the ones doing the least amount of work now. The 3 students in my class with unconditional offers openly admit they did no work over Christmas for their mock exams in January. Because they don't need the grades any more.

Bristol's contextual offer for scociology is BBC as it goes : standard offer is ABB. That's quite a big drop.

Not that I am saying this is wrong : my own DS is a recipient of a contextual offer at Aberystwyth.

Although Piggy my sons say that the people they know at Bristol who have contextual offers tend to get A and A* so may be they are offered BBC but then get very high grades. Not sure why but that is what they have found

Possibly because of its reputation : so students wouldn't even really look at it unless they were very high achievers?

That's right piggy, it is unconditional if firm and he isn't going to firm it.

I don't think the Bristol contextual offers are the same as unconditionals.

No, and I didn't say they are.

I think Bristol are trying very hard to change their private school reputation. They give contextual offers (one or two grades below their mostly quite high (depends on course - e.g. MFL is AAB which I don't think is that demanding) standard offers) to people at the 40% lowest-achieving schools, people in the 40% of areas with the lowest progression to higher education, anyone who's done one of their academic outreach courses, or anyone who's spent more than 3 months in care. That's quite a lot of people. I'm not saying it's altogether a bad thing, but it is a VERY blunt tool. For my son, his Bristol offer is so far below his other offers that he doesn't want to use it as an insurance, so it's put him off going there, lol.

Maybe universities should just use unconditional offers as part of their widening participation outreach, rather than faffing with lower offers?

Maybe , but I think UCAS et al have firmly put a stop to that!!

Tbh , I'd be amazed if anoyone in a bottom 40% school got an A in an MFL at A Level, or even got the opportunity to study it, or study it with a qualified MFL teacher. I speak from bitter experience.

I'm a governor at a bottom 40% school. We offer two MFL's at A level both taught by native speakers, and produce some A grades.

My dc has contextual offer - large sixth form college with open access policy, so a very wide range of results - many A stars and Oxbridges.

Equally many lazy sods and low achievers.

So don't discount those bottom 40% - some decent results can be had there.

That is the interesting point - if you want to get those lower offers deliberately move school at sixth form to one of teh bottom 40% school which isnot that much below half of all schools really although a bit of a gamble to game the Bristol system like that My sons certainly had quite a few boys from their school (fee paying) leaving for other kinds of sixth form - various ones in London, local comprehensives and all kinds of schools in the state system.

That is most unusual pumpkin. The Native speakers ,however, aren't always the actual best teachers, but glad to hear they egt the results. My Ds has had 5 different teachers for Spanish since year 10, only two were qualified to teach MFL and only two were qualified to teach in the UK. Many many schools are dumping MFL provision beyond one language, and the bottom 40% dominate this sad statistic. I'd guess university MFL departments aren't very socio economically diverse : hence Swansea, for example, offers unconditionals for MFL if applicants' predicted grades match or exceed entry criteria.

titchy , surely your DS's contextual offer isn't based on the institution then?