To think that top universities and in demand university courses should be free?

[queefeey]

Do you think that top universities such as Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, LSE, Imperial, et al. should be free for students?

I do not see the government funding ex-poly courses to be worthwhile, unless of course they are funding for a skill that is in need.

Courses such as medicine or nursing ought to be free too. Then perhaps if someone fancies 3 years of very little work doing their passion that is not a worthwhile investment of government money, then they can get a loan like now.

I do not see the government funding ex-poly courses to be worthwhile, unless of course they are funding for a skill that is in need.

I do believe that degrees that focus on people's passions from Oxbridge et al ought to be free. The people studying them are highly intelligent, and are highly employable for that reason.

Teenagers start threads like this on TSR nearly every day of the week...

Re LSE in particular, either through intention or otherwise, the undergraduate home student intake there is only c.25%. Would you also intend the UK taxpayer to fund the other 75%, with absolutely no prospect of repayment?

It's an uphill struggle for kids from lower income families and attending your standard secondary school to get to a decent university without imposing fees on some and not others. What do you class as a good university ,guidance from inaccurate inconsistent league tables or ones you prefer from the south of the country? And what courses are worthwhile in your eyes?

We are not working on a level playing field with our education system. My DS went to a school which over the past few years was rated inadequate, lots of changes in teachers, missing coursework, some extremely poor teaching .He taught himself a lot of the course in one subject. He worked extremely hard, got really good grades and is attending a decent RG university. Are you saying he should have to pay? While someone who has attended private school, has had the best teaching/lots of extra tutoring and attends Cambridge on the same course should not?

I don’t think anyone has ever thought I was a socialist before!

The loans system, which does have faults, opens up the playing field. It has widened participation. We must not turn the clock back to reward privilege even more. It’s not good for the country above all else. Those who are less privileged need to be encouraged to learn and preferably at the best university they can get to. Few low income DC get to do the better paid careers, so this is where work is needed. Widening opportunity.

It could be that instead of making the courses free, jobs where there is an obvious shortage, such as nurses or teachers, could have their loan lessened automatically for every year they work in those careers in the UK.

No. And I say that as someone with a DC doing a 'useful' degree at Cambridge .

However, bursaries^^ for bright underprivileged youngsters might be a good idea.
...I say that as someone whose DF got a scholarship to oxford pre-war, from a northern working class family.

No . Ideally education and maintenance grants would be free but quite frankly there isn’t enough money in the pot .
What’s your view on the many international students who attend the London institutions and Oxbridge - they form quite a substantial cohort .

So are you prepared to pay more tax to reinstate public funding of universities?

Do you have any idea how universities are funded now?

if it should be free to go to university then other adults should receive free training.

an adult (18+) choosing to go university to better themselves, is no different perhaps a different 18 year old that chooses to say... become a gas engineer. should that adult also have free training?

what age is the cut-off for free university? or can anyone have a free degree? So, back to the other choices of trainig, should they be free for life as well?

Even when some at the lesser universities just couldn't be bothered to work hard in school?

You do realise that not everyone who applies to Oxbridge gets in? They have a rigorous selection process and only a set number of places on offer.

The people studying them are highly intelligent, and are highly employable for that reason.

Your argument fails at this point. High intelligence and employability are not directly related, someone can be academically brilliant but quite useless in the workplace (not unusual in my experience).

Your argument fails at this point. High intelligence and employability are not directly related, someone can be academically brilliant but quite useless in the workplace (not unusual in my experience).

Also true. I've worked with people with degrees from top end universities who had the common sense and intuition of a house brick.

bordering on socialist

I dodn't think anyone has said that to bubbles too often (sorry bubbles !)

Some of these degrees which people have a 'passion' for lead directly or indirectly to teaching . Which is kind of -ermmmm- necessary and useful.

Just wondering where your fine institutions stop? worries degree in English Lit form York may not be good enough

So, back to the other choices of trainig, should they be free for life as well?

Ideally yes. No one does the same job for 40 years.

The OP is a goady fucker and ignorant about the way the UK HE system works, and completely dense about the value of education as an end in itself.

Best not to stoke the flames really. There’s enough stupidity in the world at the moment ...

No offence taken, Piggy! I commented on that earlier. However, just to put the record straight - I’ve never voted Conservative!

I strongly believe in those with more humble backgrounds getting to the best universities. That’s why I tend to advocate the best if posters ask. I do accept that’s not right for everyone but there is good evidence to suggest that many poorer people self limit their ambition and don’t look beyond the obvious destination because it’s comfortable. This can then limit income which has also been researched. RG do produce higher earning grads. Even when poorer students go to them, they still end up in lower earning jobs than the MC students. So, it’s all about changing that in my, non socialist, view.

When the government increased university fees to £9k, it never intended all courses to be charged at the £9k ceiling rate. The economic model that was designed as a basis for the fee increase got many of its critical hypotheses horribly wrong.

Even when poorer students go to them, they still end up in lower earning jobs than the MC students.

Yes, because most upbringing and education is determined by families not school/university. There is only so much that educational institutions can feasibly do to broaden horizons and create vision and ambition.

You would hope though, that when poorer students get to a top university, they broaden their horizons themselves and look around them. There are countless people who did manage to do this in the past which greatly increased the middle classes. They did aspire to fantastic careers despite upbringing. It seems to be a greater problem now where “getting above your station” too much is not seen as cool. I see it in my own family. Good enough is good enough. It isn’t.

At the moment people like I am who pay huges amounts of tax basically give an almost free education to all those students who will never pay a penny back - first time in UK history really we had had free education unless you earn over the threshold. Even back in my day I just got £50 grant and my parents had to make it up so £900 as I was on the minimum grant so not free in those days despite popular myths to the contrary. Now it is free so we high earners basically support many students who may never do a day's work in their lives! One chap even used his loan to fund his trip to fight for ISIS.

Nursing, teaching, infrastructure engineering and military science courses should be free, as they have massive potential benefits for society and very poor starting wages (well, engineering has got enormous starting potential but the jobs where engineers are most need are poorly paid.

But as others have said, discounts for the already privileged is not the best idea.

I agree with JustRichmal that it would make sense, if we want to use higher education for social engineering, that reducing loans for those who work certain needed jobs would likely work better. While I'd hate to bring any more of the American system into the UK (as an American myself), some of the loan forgiveness schemes for those who work in particular areas does have some positives that could be used.

That alongside bringing in/back bursaries for certain courses - as living costs tend to be far more of a barrier than tuition fees for those who do not have parents or others able or willing to help - I think would be far better than certain universities have tuition fees that aren't in part passed on to students when said fees are already not paid for upfront anyways.

You would hope though, that when poorer students get to a top university, they broaden their horizons themselves and look around them. There are countless people who did manage to do this in the past which greatly increased the middle classes.

Yes. For example, my great grandfather was the son of a publican’s daughter in London. She married at 16 to a man of modest background and had her two sons at 17 and 19. My great grandfather and his brother both went to Oxford and my great grandfather had an illustrious career as a senior civil servant and was both knighted and received the Legion d’Honneur. Not bad for someone born above his grandfather’s pub!

However, I think that nowadays the range of skills and experience that people need to raise themselves out of very modest circumstances is much greater and, crucially, expensive than in the past.

I don’t think you are right! Maria. Men might have gone to university but the girls had a huge struggle from poorer families. Their ambition was hugely limited (often by parents) unless you were pretty well to do. Even 70 years ago, few women went to university. University was mostly for men as your family history suggests. Where did the women go? What did they do?

I think there should be more uni scholarships for students from deprived areas/ care leavers/ kids who have had extreme adversity.

Eg I don’t think care leavers should have to pay back fees at all.