Subjects at GCSE/A level for Medicine

[HomeEdMom]

Looking for some advice as DD aged 14 is thinking of applying to medicine when the time comes.

She is home educated and has chosen to do Biology and Chemistry for science GCSEs. She is in year 10 and hasn't chosen A levels (which she will go to school to do) but is interested in lots of subjects, so isn't planning to do just Science A levels. At the moment she's thinking of Chemistry and Maths, plus possibly English and Music (and/or French).

I've looked at all the med school requirements and it seems that this combination will be acceptable (on paper) for some of the universities, but many of them require Bio and Chem. In practice, would she be in with a chance with a mix of science and non-science A levels?

Thanks in advance for any advice. I'm a longterm MNer btw but have name changed for privacy.

World Challenge costs participants thousands of £. If you raise it via fund raising activities it takes you away from better volunteering opportunities. Therefore the value is limited in my view and it’s not often done by poorer children who cannot raise thousands of £ because they don’t know anyone with that sort of money. I hope med schools would ignore such expensive jaunts in favour of St Johns Ambulance which has a lot to recommend it.

I think op, your DD would need to focus on getting to med school and think about little else. It seems to require that approach these days!

Universities don't care about world challenge or D of E. They are far more interested in academic ability, why you want to do medicine, and work experience/volunteering.

Good point Bubbles. She is interested in lots of things (dance, sport, plays 2 instruments at grade 8) so I don’t think she’ll be keen on focusing purely on getting in to medicine. Lots to think about.

Yes, no-one should do DofE for their UCAS form because what universities are really interested in is what's been done outside the classroom to demonstrate and develop the applicant's interest in the subject they're applying for.

DS is doing DofE because he really wants to do DofE, which is the only reason to do it.

World Challenge is one to be cautious of too, as a pp has said; I feel there's a bit of resistance to this sort of charity tourism now. Students are better off volunteering in their own community.

I went to med school in the 1990s and those without biology a level had it much tougher.

Start with your child first.

It is perfectly possible for a bright child who is not a natural scientist to get into medical school. However for them chemistry is likely to be harder, and biology will probably be an easier option than physics/maths. In contrast dyslexic DD is a natural scientist and so maths/physics were straightforward whilst biology exams (not the content) could be problematic.

Then think about the sort of training she may want. DDs course has a lot of placements. This suits her as she is quick to pick up the science she needs either from lectures or observation and she likes the patient contact. There seems to be a MN view that more formal academic courses are "better", but it is six years (DD will probably intercalate) and medicine offers a vast range of careers. Unless you are determined to go into academic medicine, I am not sure it will matter too much, and indeed more practical courses may provide better training for some specialisations and a good intercalation should open doors.

It is about fit.

I would also disagree with

" think op, your DD would need to focus on getting to med school and think about little else. It seems to require that approach these days!"

I am not sure which medschool Bubbles DD is at, but this does not seem true of DDs peers. Yes there are some who had to park everything in order to focus on the grades, and to some extent these are the ones who will then need to make more effort to stay on top of things like first year maths. But DD seems to have found her tribe of work-hard play-hard types who sign up for student places at weekend conferences, whilst enjoying a good sports/social life. She would have found A levels very dull if she were not doing plenty on the side, and the same is true now.

I think the same applies to volunteering/work experience. There is a lot of debate here on what medical schools expect. I think this needs to be flipped. Work experience is important in so far as it helps a student decide whether medicine is for them. If they found a shadowing experience fascinating - then great. If they happily engaged with residents at the local care home - also great. And as Medschoolrat suggests, if they can turn up to interview and talk spontaneously about the StJA experience - perfect. DD did lots, because she enjoyed it. She volunteered again this summer at a residential camp for the disabled and plans to do so again next. She saws that one or two of her peers are wavering about whether they are on the right course. She in contrast is forming her initial ideas on what to specialise in, based on WE and placements. (Paeds is ruled out after a season working for a family ski company!)

If a student has academic headroom, I would argue that breadth of experience, whether in music or volunteering, is valuable, and the ability to switch off by doing something very different is invaluable. And that whilst gaining the medschool place is a focus, there needs to be room to stand back and re appraise this every so often. It is too easy to get wrapped up in jumping the hurdles and see gaining a place as the target, without thinking about the end destination.

"If a student has academic headroom, I would argue that breadth of experience, whether in music or volunteering, is valuable"

Interestingly, when we looked at HYMS last year the admissions tutor said that they preferred would be students to have chemistry and biology, and an arts or humanities A level as this demonstrated a breadth of education.

Very interesting, thank you.

My doctor sibling did biology (plus in those days an S level in it in addition ) , chemistry (plus an S level), maths (and further maths).

Xenia in those days that was the absolutely standard menu for all medics - at least all the girls in my school who went off to do medicine did exactly those four, with no deviation.

DH did Maths, F maths, Chem and physics. It’s different nowadays!

Just to echo what a PP said about lack of physics GCSE.
One of my dc is studying medicine at Bristol and hasn’t got physics at GCSE, it definitely limited his choices, so much so that there was virtually no discussion about which unis to put on his UCAS form. All of them would have been happy with combined sciences but the total lack of physics from 13 onwards was an issue.

all very well to say look at university websites but what they actually take and what they put on their websites to make sure the maximum number apply can be quite different. All medical schools are competitive and when they have students with both chemistry (almost essential in theory, you'd have to be truly exceptional without it) and biology why risk a student without it who may struggle? As one interviewer said to me they have such great candidates they look for any excuse to sift out.

Schools vary so while one may like a non science subject others will like a non science subject. Some insist on lots of A*s at GCSE, some dont. The Student Room website can probably tell you what universities cut offs were this year more accurately than mumsnet.

If you can discourage her from medicine do so, the working conditions are poor, the pay isnt great in comparison to other jobs that dont require you to work night shifts and Christmas (and you lose 9% of your low pay for 30 years as there is no chance of paying off the loans) and you are exposed to every bug going. The physical and emotional strains require great resilience.

Ignore that. No one goes into medicine for the money ! They do it because they want to be doctors and care. Much easier ways to be rich !
Unis are very transparent with their entry criteria now and websites spell it out v clearly. If in doubt go to open days next June and discuss with admissions tutors as they are very good at sifting through the different situations of each student.
Surely no one going into medicine thinks about money ??!?!?!?!

no-one with enough brain to be a doctor should go into medicine for the money - but most people going into medicine are idealistic teenagers. After 10, 20, 30, 40 years of caring and getting constant criticism from the press, the government and sometimes getting assaulted by their patients they will possibly see things a little differently. Therefore any sensible parent will try and persuade their child to opt for an easier life. Work experience may give them a slight glimpse of reality as many doctors will try to warn them off.

Universities are not transparent with entry criteria. Go to open days and you will be told that what is on the website is not what they generally take. Ignore that if you want, you'll regret it.

alreadytaken you seem not to have noticed that the DH is a doctor. He probably knows the score pretty well, in terms of whether the career is as full of woe as you make out.

And my DD is a first year medic so has just gone through the process. Things have changed a lot in recent years and Med schools are mostly really clear on how they select for interview. Open days were very helpful and admissions tutors great at debunking myths.

And the point of making them get some work experience is so they are not idealised and realise what they are getting themselves into.

My DD certainly aware of the long anti social hours and still wants to be a doctor. Just as well some people do !

And no doctor tried to warn her off. They told her they loved their jobs !

There is a lot more transparency now and I hope a few more medical schools follow Sheffield who seem to be working hard to dispel any myths. I actually think more myths are brought about my some posts on mumsnet- you need such and such to do medicine.

I dont think any teenagers have idealistic views - there is too much bad press about the NHS to have this view and I know my DD has been to A & E a few times and sat around for hours - but all the doctors we have come into contact with are more concerned with treating patients and making them better than earning money.

oneteen I agree about MN peddling myths - at least sometimes. I think a few of us try to dispel myths eg around the need to do three years of volunteering at a care home etc (just one example) but then we get shot down by people who come up with the silly mantra that it's a 'stealth boast'. And what a silly mantra that is - used as the first line of argument always and almost always ironic. It's the same on the Oxbridge threads. It's a shame, but the process for both medical applications and Oxbridge applications are too often mystified on MN with the emphasis put on how uber stressful they are when really, they needn't be. They're not going to be completely stress free either, but that's life. It's a significant deterrent though. And then the same old posters will insist that the process needs a military mastermind (ie them) at the helm.

DS1 is still enjoying his medical training seven years in and I don't hear of much moaning among his friends and have never heard him say the doctors he's encountered have warned the students off. So there are still some doctors out there with a positive outlook on life - and as mumsneedwine says, thank goodness for that!

You get the same with law too - people saying it is awful and yet I and many other lawyers think it is one of the best careers there is and I recommend it to lots of people.

Of course you will get doctors, lawyers, teachers and all sorts who don't like their work and they tend to be the ones on line moaning but that doesn't mean all of us hate it all. There are positive and negative things about most careers and it is how you can cope with the bad and keep going which can be as important as enjoying the good bits. We need a kind of resilience/stocism test for some courses and jobs I suspect.

Yes Xenia although on MN the overwhelming vibe from you is that law is good/ interesting/ fun/ very important for society etc. Whereas there's hardly a medical thread going where the usual suspect (or two) doesn't (don't) weigh in with doom and gloom even though I think plenty of doctors would say medicine is also good/ interesting/ fun/ very important for society.

I suspect a lot of it comes down to how much power and control you have in your life. I am scanning my 1993 diary this week. I was an employee then and wanted more control of my working life and mentioned my doctor sibling having more control (although I doubt that has been the case across their whole career in the NHS). ihave certainly enjoyed it more the more seniority I have had and then working for myself is best of all.

In fact that is part of my advice to the children - pick work which is intellectually challenging, ideally high paid and where ultimately there is at least some scope to work for yourself and of course which you enjoy.

I remember once doing a school presentation with a barrister about law and she gave the most off putting talk ever - only do this if you cannot not do it. It was as if she were putting people off becoming a nun where they say unless you have that vocation from God which means there is nothing else you might do only then do it.

Another thing to consider which I don't think has been mentioned is whether she would want to go to a school that offer interviews on the basis of the BMAT rather than ukcat. BMAT is very science minded, missing one at A levels is hard enough but two would make it much harder to be competitive. I've read some applicants saying they wished they'd done physics at A levels in addition to Chemistry and Biology although these were applicants who wanted to go to Oxford or Imperial and therefore needed to do very well.