Medicine 2020

[EightToSixer]

Ok, so I know it's super early, but I've been hovering at the medicine 18 and 19 threads. DD is keen to apply for medicine in 2020. Is anyone else in the same boat?
I thought it would be useful to share info and stories, it's all a very steep learning curve because despite me now having a PhD and working in a RG university I was late to learning and not a patch on my DD who is very driven and organised.
Hopefully people will find this group and we can share the rollercoaster of the next two years.

8s as As although half of them are actually equivalent to A.*

I’ve googled and still can’t find anything to substantiate this. An 8 is broadly similar to a A. Hypothetically, even if a student had received an 8 rather than a high A, the new GCSEs are quite a bit more difficult than the old GCSEs. I don’t think a student a few marks from an A would have necessarily gotten an 8, probably a A.

If universities did not think an A* was similar to an 8, they wouldn’t equate it as such. Especially universities such as Oxbridge.

All the unis we’ve looked at say they regard 8/9 as the same.

Do we know if having the odd 6 will mean def no interview? Flipping music...

@newgirls I can only go on how Cardiff score GCSEs:

3 points for A*/8/9, 2 points for A/7 and 1 point for B/6. They take the best 9 GCSE grades but must include Biol, Chem, Physics, English language and Maths.

The total possible score from GCSEs is 27. Admissions wouldn't say what the cut off score is but implied that 25+ would be necessary.

The link to how Birmingham score has been shared further up in the thread, it's quite similar but they consider UCAT scores too.

@Pepermintea I'm glad your daughter is happy with the course and city of Cardiff. We're based in Cardiff and love it here.

If universities did not think an A was similar to an 8, they wouldn’t equate it as such.*

This isn't necessarily true. The English GCSE grading system doesn't align with the Welsh & Northern Irish ones above the 6/7 boundary (allowing for Northern Ireland introducing C to be equivalent to 5) but universities don't have any mechanism for judging whether an 8 is equivalent to A or A without requesting raw marks and assessing these against published grade boundaries, which we don't have the resources to do. Treating 8 as directly equivalent to either A or A* is inevitably going to be unfair on some students but there isn't really anything universities can do about it.

I don't think an 8 is directly equivalent to an A, and wouldn't be comfortable distinguishing between As and As at GCSE for this reason. Other medical schools depend more on GCSEs for selection, so they are forced into stating an equivalence even if they don't believe it's fair. I don't have any power as an admissions tutor to introduce any method of discriminating between 8s and 9s that would be fair to students from Wales or taking CCEA qualifications in Northern Ireland.

The problem is that English, Welsh and Northern Irish GCSEs are all officially treated as the same qualification, which they aren't. The same goes for A-levels. There is no way that a grade in a Welsh A-level is directly equivalent to the same grade in an English A-level. But, then again, it's difficult to be entirely confident that a grade in an Edexcel A-level is directly equivalent to the same grade in an AQA or OCR A-level. Ofqual at least accredits all of the English exam boards' qualifications, but the alignment of standards between England, Wales & Northern Ireland is a bit less reliable.

The school qualifications system (outside Scotland, which I confess I don't know much about) is an almighty mess, and gets worse every time governments touch it. But, of course, degree classes also aren't equivalent between universities, so wading through this mess sets up students for the complications they'll face later.

Thanks lionfish that late v helpful and makes a lot of sense. We tried the Birmingham calculator and it seemed v similar - one grade down at gcse and prob no interview.😪

I think if there's a concern about gcse grades then candidates should think about applying to a med school that doesn't use gcse grades as a selection criteria. Eg Queen Mary uses UCAS score (predicted grades, epq etc) equally weighted with UCAT score. No mention of gcse grades st all.

Thanks medicine mistress! I hadn’t spotted that at all - will look into it. Very kind.

@Newgirls, if you want to post stats I can give you some pointers - have been active on TSR for long enough to have gathered a lot of information!

@SirTobyBelch thanks for that, it is good to see that Admissions Tutors see the weaknesses in the system even if it is difficult for you to do anything about it. Having been through the system, it is clear that there are so many people whose results simply do not reflect their abilities. UCAT is another odd one - I don't know how big the question bank is, but it feels like there is quite a range in the difficulty of questions people get. At least they have scores rather than grades, so the cliff edges are not as bad as those in A level (apart from SJT).

The mixture of boards and the carnage of maths this year have really thrown my confidence in the system. DS did fine in maths, but I know 2 girls who were so thrown by Edexcel paper 2 and the fact that it did not look like any of the preparation materials they had seen, that they almost did not go in to do the third paper. Lots of students in tears during the exam, one having to leave the room to sort herself out. That is not how it should be and the results have such an impact at this stage in their lives.

Enough ranting - we just have to work out how to help them "game the system" and develop resilience!

Hello, I've been lurking and not contributing as no wisdom to impart.

Any chance for a student who has a strong application other than her UCAT scores? She is beside herself, she's placed in the fourth decile.

It's not great is it? Don't know what to advise her other than to call each and every school and discuss.

@shockthemonkey what are her other stats like. Yes, there may well be other options, including BMAT. UCAT is a very odd test, BMAT is difficult, but more like normal exams.

@shockthemonkey - You can find this out from some medical schools' web sites. For example, Keele and Sunderland only exclude those in the bottom 2 deciles or with band-4 SJT. However, they select for interview on the basis of supplementary autobiographcal statement. Cardiff doesn't set a threshold (I'm not sure exactly how they do use it).

Is she taking BMAT?

@shockthemonkey I know Plymouth will usually interview all applicants with 2400 in UCAT which is 3rd decile I believe. I can't help on others as I know other ones DD is applying to have much higher cut offs, or generally disregard the UCAT. Does your DD plan to do BMAT also, it favours different strengths to UCAT.

Thank you so much. She's decided against BMAT as she is not studying A levels and does not have the same competences in the sciences. She has loads of potential and is a very good student but is studying a Baccalaureate so cannot concentrate as much on biology, chemistry and maths as A level students can.

Thank you so much for the advice re Plymouth, Eight.

I will be urging her to look at Keele, Exeter, Plymouth, Cardiff, Sunderland and a few others. But really she needs to call each school and ask how they select for interview in detail to see how her application might stack up.

Might have to look at the supplementary autobiographical statement at Keele and Sunderland. She would have an interesting one as she is very international and has done quite an interesting batch of work experiences.

Thanks again!

Remember that the deciles generally go down in the final stats.

Liverpool is good with around 610.
Last year Lincoln did not turn anyone away who met their basic requirements
Manchester have the holistic route for people who are not in top 3 deciles if she has interesting work experience
Cardiff only use UCAT as a tie-break, but you needed 8 A, 1A at GCSE for 2018 entry. 2019 entry will be a funny one because they treated 9 as A, but 8 as A. This year they will be treating 8/9 as A* so I think you will need 9 8/9s as there are so many more of them around.
Birmingham really good GCSEs can make up for poor UCAT
Barts very high UCAS tariff can compensate for poor UCAT (including music grades etc)

Shock, might it be worth her hiring an admissions consultant who understands the British system. There are lots out there. Something similar happened to a friend's son, but by carefully selecting where to apply, and with some professional help, he got 4 interviews, albeit one in July and ended up on 2 waitlists.

Liverpool and Plymouth were two of his options.

Has she looked further afield. RoI is good for kids with good grades but little work experience. Or could she try France.(I assume she speaks French.) Their entry requirements tends to be lower and the learning style is often a better fit for those who have done French Bac.(Despite a general French view that A levels are far easier, they can often provide a better prep for UK higher education, especially the more hands on medical degrees.)

If she is a EU citizen she might also consider Malta, and several central European medical schools that teach in English. (Though be wary. Some are very well regarded. Others less so.) We also had a look at Malaysia with clinical in Nottingham. Other Malaysian universities offer clinical elsewhere in the UK, or in RoI. I know a couple of students doing the latter. They seem happy, with ambitions to eventually practice in the UK.

Thanks, she has considered RoI and may apply there... won't consider Malta, and the French system puts her off: the cut-throat "concours" at the end of first and second year makes many students drive themselves into the ground (literally the daughters of two of my friends were carted off in ambulances in the run-up to the concours).

Yes she knows that she'd be much better positioned had she been studying A levels, as the difference between her depth of knowledge in maths, biology and chemistry is quite clear and she has been trying to fill the gap as much as possible while also keeping up her seven other Bac subjects!

If she went with a proper professional she knows she'll hear schools she's not crazy about. Yes, I am still having the same struggle with her, she has her heart set on the names she has heard of - King's, Imperial... I think she is beginning to open up to being more tactical about it but a little late in the game maybe.

When I looked into RoI for vet med (another student...), UCD said that only those with 19+ in the French Bac got offers the previous year. So she is bracing herself for some very stiff academic requirements there (but is at least considering TCD which is something!)

Thanks again everyone

I am not sure if I understand. Surely the odds of getting through are about the same in the UK and France. Its just that in the UK 60% (or whatever the figure is) dont get places, whilst in France 60% (or whatever the figure is) dont get through first year exams. I dont see why she would think one system is 'easier'.

Anyway the tactics of one London based French family were to apply to UK, RoI, and France at the same time. She did not get a UK place (her preference, though I suspect she will have focused on the big name competitive London schools) but did get RoI and France.

She deferred her RoI place so she had it in reserve should she not get through her first year in France. She did in fact pass, and apparently the French medical school system is far more rigerous than the British one, so it worked out fine.

Monkey v kind thanks. Her ucat is good and good a level predictions. Good work experience. GCSEs - six 8s, two 7s and two 6s. The 8s were all the core subjects. I wish I’d got the 6s remarked (Top tip for anyone following this!)).

I think avoid Cardiff and Edinburgh - anywhere else you think ‘just dont’?

Sorry can’t help Shock - sounds like Stella advice coming in!

Oxford, Birmingham

Shockthemonkey- my friend’s DD got offers from Liverpool, Cardiff and QUB thus year with a 4th decile ukcat and top academics. Focusing on getting great grades, having a super- productive gap year and applying for top med schools with achieved grades is also a really good pathway to consider.

Newgirls those are great grades, those 7-9s mean she is fine anywhere except Oxford, Cardiff, Leeds and possibly Edinburgh (they have still not released the details of their new scoring system).

If the UCAT is in top 15% she would be fine with Bristol, Newcastle, Sheffield. Top 30% for Manchester.

I am not sure why you think Birmingham is a problem - from website:
The subjects that will be scored are: English (both English Language and English Literature), Mathematics (or one, but not both, of Methods in Mathematics and Applications of Mathematics), Biology and Chemistry (or dual award science), plus two additional GCSEs in any subject.
So it looks like DD gets 5x4 for the core subjects and 2/4 for the other 8, unfortunately nothing for the 7s and 6s. That is still 5.5/6 for GCSEs, so she just needs over 2.5/4 for UCAT to get to the "over 8" competitive score, and last year 2690 would have been enough. 2770 would have got 3.111, so a total score of 8.611 which would definitely be competitive.

She has loads of options! Where does she want to go?

You are right about reviews of marking. DS's 6 in English Lit went to a 9!

Yes I agree Sleep, it comes down to the same (for chances of success) but she feels that if she get a place in the UK she's jumped that hurdle earlier.

In France the stories of students having nervous breakdowns in med school (only to be kicked out at the end of first or second year) are apocryphal.

I think she's also applying in another EU country. And considering TCD too.

I really appreciate everyone's contributions on this thread as there is so much useful info here