Oxford uni questions

[questioner123]

Hi all!

My DD is thinking of applying to Oxford uni for law. We have some questions though which hopefully you all help answer for us:

1. My DD is thinking of Pembroke, Oriel and Keble college, do any of you or your DC’s have any experiences of these colleges?

2. This may be a bit of a stupid question, but DD would like the option of being able to come home if she is having a bad day or just missing home, especially being able to come home some weekends if she wants too. Are the students allowed to do this at Oxford University?

3. My DD is worried at the smaller colleges that it may be cliquey or ‘gossipy’ like school, could/is this the case or are the smaller colleges more friendly and closer overall than the larger colleges?

4. What is the workload and pressures like?

5. How strict are the colleges on rules and regulations compared to other universities?

Many thanks

1 - I knew people at all of them, way back when. They're all quite different.

2 - yes, you can go home, as long as you're not missing anything mandatory such as tutorials or classes (lectures are optional).

3 - no idea. Mine was smallish and friendly/close, but also VERY gossipy.

4 - quite heavy? Although you don't realise until Christmas when you talk to friends from other unis

5 - no idea! What sort of rules and regulations are you thinking of?

Those are three very different colleges. What is your DD looking for? What kinds of rules and regulations are you thinking of, OP? Work pressure is intense — so is play — and going home when you have a bad day or for the weekend is, while not impossible, made harder by the pace of the short eight-week terms. If your DD thinks she might be so homesick she is likely to want to go home on a regular basis, I’d be reconsidering Oxford.

Thanks for your replies so far...

To be honest I’m not even sure, this is just what my DD says to me concerns her. She is worried that it won’t be very independent like other universities and may be a repeat of rules etc. like at sixth form if that makes sense?

Would you mind explaining how the colleges are different? It’s hard to take it all in on an open day!

Yes I see your point loveobject, she is worried about leaving home for the first time as she very much loves her ‘home comforts’, so I think it is more peace of mind the option of being able to come home as we live relatively local.

There are many aspects of Oxford however that she loves, which is why she is seriously considering applying there.

I’m still not sure I understand what rules she’s worried about at Oxford over and above other institutions — It’s a university, not a school/A-level college! Depending on your course, it can require far more independence than other universities — law may be different, but I didn’t have classes, just the requirement to hit the ground running, writing two essays a week and keeping on top of vast amounts of reading.

Colleges are very different in terms of size, location, atmosphere, facilities, tradness etc etc. In her shoes, I’d be considering things like does she want a small or big college, whether she wants city centre or further afield/quieter/close to river if she rows, cost of rent, can she hold onto her room in the vac, is accommodation offered for all years, library facilities in her subject etc.

And of course she doesn’t have to choose a college, she can put in an open application and be allocated a college, which can happen anyway if her preferred college is oversubscribed with excellent candidates in her subject.

Get her to have a look at the college suggester on the alternative prospectus website.

Colleges particularly some, will have more rules and more adults (in different guises) keeping an eye on things than in halls of residence at other universities. Not a bad thing I think especially age 18-19.

Going by the questions (is someone allowed to go home, are they very strict) it sounds like there may be a bit of a misconception about the nature of university.

Your DD will be treated as an adult while at Oxford. If she wishes to go home every evening, let alone every weekend, she’s absolutely entitled to - it’s not boarding school and there are no curfews.

When I think of rules and regulations I think of ‘this is what must be worn, this is when you must attend breakfast, absence will be punished, doing this will get you a detention.’ Your DD is going to find precious little of that. Rules and regulations at university will encompass the big things like ‘do not plagiarise, don’t cause criminal damage’. In that aspect Oxford will be the same as any other institution.

For gossip and cliqueyness, if you’re thinking of ‘Mean Girls’ style cabals, not so much. Everyone rubs along, and naturally there will be friendship groups that form, but I didn’t find it especially tribal - some people you gravitate towards, others you don’t. There will be gossip. That’s what happens when you have horny young adults living in close proximity. It’s rarely malicious, but it’s inevitable.

Workload is heavy, especially compared to other universities. For an arts student, two essays a week to be written and discussed/defended in your tutorial, plus in some cases a handful of classes (lectures tend not to be compulsory - again, you’re an adult, you’re only hurting yourself if you elect not to attend something that’s going to help you.) Not sure what else lawyers have to do, I seem to recall moots being a thing. Reading lists are long, so you quickly acclimatise to scanning for the nuggets rather than trying to digest whole chapters of each book.

In terms of pressure, I found it was really all internal. No one is cracking a whip and saying pull your socks up - if your essay is at a 2:2 level, that’s the feedback you will get, but there won’t be any ‘see me after class’ notes for you. Some colleges have reputations for producing exceptional students, so the culture there may feel a little pressured, just in terms of being among high-achieving cohorts.

Pembroke and Oriel have very strong rowing traditions, and Keble is right next to the University Parks, which are lovely. Pembroke will also claim to have the best kebab van outside their college, but that is pish, I wouldn’t listen to that. And that’s about all I know about the colleges I’m afraid!

Sorry, I meant to say the workload is heavy but, even for someone as disorganised as me, perfectly manageable. You get into a rhythm.

Where is goodbyestranger, who has all the info on this topic! Total expert.

I would worry a bit about thinking she would want to go home. I think that both of you should go to Oxford again and simply have a look around. Go into the colleges and ask the porters. They know all about the colleges! She may want to know about wearing gowns, formal dining or similar events. However, nearly everyone is happy at every college. If she thinks about size and location, she can narrow the choice down.

I have no doubt there are rules about not disturbing other students but only as a good neighbour wouldn’t. They are full of students after all and as others have said, it’s not school.

No experience of those particular colleges but DD applied for a small college, and ended up at a big one but was really happy there. Important for her was accommodation, full three years, availability of food, and environment, all readily and beautifully provided at her college. She did come back twice (in three years) on a Friday night, we are on the Reading line, so quite a quick and easy ride back in to Surrey. As a PP has said though, the terms are short, so they are so busy, there will not be much time to fit in trips home.
It is a university like any other, so all types of people, all living together, generally rubbing along, and actually generally pretty supportive of one another as they are all working really hard. No rules, other than respect your neighbour and don't be a nuisance. Workload is intense, DD did science subject with many contact hours, lab hours and plenty of tutorials, some well into the evening, so days can be full on.

I wonder if she's read some old stories about colleges being locked at certain times, for the rules worry?

Yes, that used to happen (and the girls' colleges had regulations for what times they could have male visitors) but now they just get given a key to use after lock up.

There are the university proctors who are responsible for discipline. Only time I can remember them is they told a friend of mine he couldn't open the champagne he'd been given for finishing finals because he'd shaken it. He was actually just shaking with relief of them finishing, but we teased him about it for ages.

And they used to send a letter each year reminding students about their behaviour. In my year it had an error. We were told to remember our behaviour in pubic places. They regretted that one I think.

Only rules are really common sense ones like behaviour which I don't think she'd worry about. Colleges do have their own rules but they tend to be along the lines of "don't use blu tac" (our college just said more obliquely: "We remind students of the damage blue tac can do on painted surfaces") or "do not use candles for fire regulations" (ie it's survived probably 300 years with only naked flames for light, please don't burn it down now) and don't take sheep into the Bodleian Library (although dh has the right to graze sheep on St Giles if he could find any grass to do it with).

I was at the (at the time) smallest college) and I wouldn't describe it as cliquey. Most people tended to find a group of friends within the college, but things like in the dining hall people were always happy to chat to anyone. I found it very welcoming.

Good thing about Pembroke is it's all but next to Sainsbury's. It's a nice smallish one.
Funny thing was when I was there the alternative prospectus wrote "The only good thing about St Peter's is that it's the closest college to Sainsbury's". St Peter's were not impressed while the rest of us pointed out that they weren't even that. That's why I remember Pembroke is closest!

My daughter apllied to Keble college, when she was invited for interview she stayed at St Annes, she had four interviews two at Keble and two at St Annes , she was accepted at St Annes which she is happy about but be aware you don't always get into the college you apply for!

Thanks everyone for your replies. I think she is leaning more towards Oriel at the moment, but is concerned that it is on the smaller size for a college. She read that Pembroke formals are compulsory 3 times a week which has put her off, otherwise she would apply there most likely. We didn’t have time to visit Keble on the open day unfortunately.

Thanks again for all your comments.

riverbank I was at St Anne's many moons ago, but I go back quite regularly. It's a great down to earth, friendly place. I'm sure she'll be happy there.

questioner As others have said, Oxford is a university, not a boarding school. There are very few rules - only those designed to make life civilised. There are no compulsory dinners. If you don't want to go to formal hall, don't. But actually, they are usually really nice occasions. An advantage of the collegiate system is that you have a close community, you can get to know loads of people, but it's not a prison. You will have tutorials etc in other colleges and get to know people from all colleges via clubs and societies.
Nobody will be monitoring behaviour or taking a register.
The workload is considerable, but if you're good enough to get in, you should be good enough to deal with the workload. It is manageable and nobody will chase you. You have to be able to work independently. However, you will be expected to maintain the required standard, but that should be pretty obvious at every tutorial.
Re coming home, she could of course, but I think when she's been there a week, she'll be too busy socially to think about it! You don't have to get a pass out from teacher.
Colleges vary a lot architecturally of course. They will also vary depending on whether they guarantee all 3 years accommodation and is it on site? Some colleges provide proper cooking facilities others not so much as a microwave.

But... really don't get too hung up on college choice. Wherever you go you will have a great experience.

questioner DS has just graduated from Oriel. It's great and he had a fab time but lots of other colleges are equally good to go to, it's what a person makes of it more than anything else. It sounds to me as though your DD is getting too deep into the minutiae. Also, if the formal thing puts her off Pembroke then what on earth leads her from that to Oriel?

Also, two of my DDs read Law and the workload is on the high side. The real killer with Law is that it's very, very heavily exam based and all of those nine exams are taken in May/ June of the final year in the space of a fortnight (a small piece of coursework has been introduced but that's barely scratched the surface of final exams/ pressure). This is unique among law schools.

DH and I went to ChCh.

There (20 years ago) you were not 'allowed' to go home. Of course you could, but technically you had to check your pidgeon hole every day and not doing so was a reason to be sent down. We saw this used against somebody who was not 'engaging'.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who are sent down before they finish. They don't want people to fail and people in danger of this are sent down for some rather spurious reasons, including in my time the 'pidgeon hole rule'.

There are (were) rules at ChCh. You can't have a job, you have to were a gown to go into formal, you have to wear certain clothes in the exam halls, you can only row before dawn and after dusk (well, nearly), you CANNOT swim in the ornamental pond and stealing the porters' hats was considered to be awesome poor form. I'm pretty sure there is also a rule about when you are allowed to recite poetry from you balcony if you live in Meadows- but that may have been a college legend. However, I don't recall the rules being a hindrance to having a good time.

I don't remember much about work either. I have suppressed the scars of the mad dash to catch up for Finals.

This is unique among law schools.

But standard at Oxford. The only things that count are Prelims and Finals.

Lord- apologies for all the typos!

She read that Pembroke formals are compulsory 3 times a week which has put her off

Honestly, P, as others have said, she's getting hung up on ridiculously small issues. Is it the case that she's imagining formal hall as being like a dinner dance or a ball or something?

I can't speak for Pembroke specifically, but I was at a 'grander', more traditionally formal, larger college (which had formal hall as an option every night -- and I usually went, as it suited me to eat a bit later), and formal hall was exactly like informal hall. The only difference was that you had to wear your gown. (Or someone else's, whatever you could grab. ) It's not some kind of compulsory haute cuisine in ball gowns three times a week, if that's what she's imagining.

Many colleges have special formal hall a few times a term -- and that often has a smarter dress code, but normal formal hall just means wearing a gown. An academic gown, not a slinky frock.

Which she won't even notice after about five minutes at Oxford, anyway -- I was there long enough ago for not all staircases to have bathrooms, and people used to use their gowns as dressing gowns when nipping to another staircase.

and formal hall was exactly like informal hall. The only difference was that you had to wear your gown. (Or someone else's, whatever you could grab. grin)

The freemarket gown. Can't see mine, I'll go see what's hanging in the buttery. Worst case scenario, we'll try to get two people in in one gown, like the minions in a raincoat.

I was at Magdaken in the 90s. Very cliquey and gossipy, worse than school in that respect. No problem going home at weekends, I used to do it when the laundry mountain got too big and it was only two bus rides away, as Oxford is very well served by public transport. Oriel had a reputation for being the most male-dominated and even misogynistic of all the former men's colleges and was the best for rowing, the activity with the most notoriously macho reputation. I stress that this was in the late 90s, so before your daughter was born; the culture might have changed considerably since.

The only rule that really chafed was not being allowed to work in term time or the short vacations, other than for the college or the university. People did take outside jobs in spite of this, and I never knew of anyone be disciplined for it.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who are sent down before they finish. They don't want people to fail and people in danger of this are sent down for some rather spurious reasons, including in my time the 'pidgeon hole rule'.

I went 20 years ago and that wasn't my experience. I had a friend at ChCh who used to sometimes go off for the weekend to see her boyfriend. She used to inform the porter's lodge as she left, so was totally open about it.
The only person I knew who was sent down spent most of his first half term drunk and doing no work. Even then they gave him several chances and tried to help in lots of ways.
My experience is the tutors don't want people to fail, but that includes sending down without a degree, after all they chose you at interview, and will put in a lot of extra time if you are (or feel you are) struggling.

Jeez, yes, pigeon holes! For some reason I don't remember weekends away being a problem, probably because my tutor lived out and had better things to do than summoning me on a Saturday morning. But every term at the start of noughth week I got back on time, only to find a note from him in spidery brown ink summoning me to a meeting earlier that day! I still have nightmares where I've missed those early morning meetings and I have to turn up to his study and present my grovelling excuses, aged 41 and with three kids in tow.

4) What is the workload and pressures like?

Totally off the scale! But I speak as a very lazy person who was from a "non-traditional background" and thus woefully unprepared. At least information is easier to come by these days.