Uni applications and choices advice please!

[questioner123]

Hi everyone,

Another request for some much needed advice please.

DD has just started year 13, and needs to send off uni options soon. She is bright and hard-working and predicted A*AA. She is naturally a writer, more humanities subject student rather than science, but is taking biology and psychology a-level.

DD’s plans were to apply for uni this year, defer her offers until 2020 entry, and apply for vet med next October (2019), whilst undertaking a one year intensive a-level course. So we have just discovered (never even thought of this possibility beforehand!) that you cannot have a place deferred and send off new applications at the same time- I’m very new to all this. So it would be a gamble of getting an offer for vet med and an A grade in chemistry a-level, with no back up plan for that year.

Question is, DD had her heart set on the possibility of vet med, but felt safe with the idea of a back up plan (her deferred offer) in case she didn’t get the A grade in chemistry. Now however, as that is not possible, it is a choice of:

1. Applying this year to universities for law, accepting any offers, and then waiting until next year after results day (and more time to think about vet med) and either go to uni or decline the place and risk applying for veterinary medicine, which is competitive in itself, and rely on getting an offer and an A grade in chemistry.

The thing about this however is a) if you decline university offers after results day will they ever accept an application again and want to give you another place?, and b) if an A grade was not achieved/no offers received, DD would have no plans for uni that year, and be another year behind her peers (in total 3 years behind, so would be going to uni at 21 at the earliest).

Or not applying at all this year so we don’t decline places and see how chemistry a-level goes next year and then make our choices.

1. Or give up on the veterinary medicine dream and do something more sensible and interesting, and one she would be good at, which is the law degree that she is very interested in and was going to be her back up option (yes they are very different, she is genuinely interested in both although vet med really is her dream!). She is fearful of the potential regrets and ‘what if’ she could experience if she never gave chemistry a try.

1. Or do a scientific degree e.g. psychology or biomed to keep open the option of vet med in the future, but isn’t as passionate about compared to a law degree which she genuinely would be interested in?

So really what I am asking for is some advice if you were in her/our situation as we are having endless conversations that are not helping and getting more confusing.

Also, how hard from your experiences would it be for an A grade GCSE chemistry student, with a B grade in GCSE maths, to achieve an A grade in chemistry in one year?

Thank you all for reading this and any advice you have would be so appreciated!

May I ask whether she has had any veterinary work experience? She will need a lot to be a successful applicant independently of the chemistry issue. Sometimes the dreamed for career does n't match reality (often the case with being a vet) and she needs to know that before gambling a year doing chemistry especially if she finds chemistry hard. (The B in maths is concerning for physical chemistry)
If she is realistic and has some vet work experience then the only reason for applying for law this year would be if you thought she might change her mind back to law by the August results. For a proper attempt at a vet application she needs to focus on what is needed from now in time for an application in a year's time. I don't see the point of applying for a science degree this year. She could apply for vet nursing though or a foundation year in health and vet sciences (e.g. Liverpool) and, if she can get sufficient work experience before the October deadline, try vet medicine with a preliminary year at Nottingham as one of her five choices.

If she does not have work experience and therefore has a higher chance of deciding against vet med, then yes continuing with an application for law does seem sensible.

Reapplying for law in 2 years time If she declines a law place and it all goes wrong for chemistry should not be a problem for the universities.
Also as you know she does not need a law degree to qualify as a lawyer.

If vet med was truly her “dream” why didn’t she pick appropriate A levels at the right time? Most Unis will look differently at a set of A level grades taken in 2 separate stages: far easier to get a better grade if only taking one subject at a time! Have you identified a place that will even do the Chemistry A level in one year? This all sounds really muddled to me and given vet med is so very competitive I wonder if her application would pass muster against those who have done appropriate A levels in one sitting and have illustrated their commitment by years of relevant work experience

Don't apply this year. Do Apply next year. Seems like your only choice.

What I would actually do is EMAIL the admissions tutors at 5-7 vet schools & ask them what they advise & think is feasible.

*but keep the question to VetSchool simple: can she even get in with the intense A-level chemistry & B in math GCSE. If most of them say yes, then wait until next year to apply. She can do heaps of work experience in mean time, too.

If she applies next year she will have the option to 'trade up'.

You said she isn't passionate about the science degrees, if so will she manage vet medicine? The first years are science, science, science.

What are her other A Levels?

Does she really want to be a vet? If she wants to work with animals something like animal behaviour might be an idea.

If she changes her mind about being a vet then there is a 1 year conversion course you can take after you graduate.

I agree with getting as much experience at a vets as possible, not only would it give her an idea of what it is like but possibly a reference too.

On the question whether if you decline a university place will they ever offer you another place the next year. Logically if you pull out of a firm acceptance at one university at the last minute, I can see that that university department might not want to offer you a place again (although if they are 'recruiters' with unfilled places they may see no harm in doing so! I imagine there are fewer law courses with unfilled places than some other degrees though. Particularly the very competitive ones which your dd with her predicted grades might be applying for)

But if you reject a place in order to apply for something completely different the following year, as a matter of logic I can't see why a university department would hold that against you. Would they even know?

This is just my speculation though op, so maybe someone with more admissions experience will have a better idea of the answer!

If she changes her mind about being a vet then there is a 1 year conversion course you can take after you graduate.

You mean a conversion course to Law? I read that as converting to vet in a year; my understanding is graduate vet med programs still take 4 or 5 years and are difficult to fund, and not easy to get onto and may require relevant first degree.

Also, how hard from your experiences would it be for an A grade GCSE chemistry student, with a B grade in GCSE maths, to achieve an A grade in chemistry in one year?
Chemistry seems to be one of the subjects with a particularly large jump from GCSEs to A level. Some of DDs pals with A* triple science and better maths than that didn't get A for chemistry in two years. Does the school/college have a good track record for teaching chemistry in one year? (Good chemistry teachers seem to be in short supply)

Lljkk is right though - your DD should ask admissions tutors, they're the ones who can give her a realistic assessment.

Honestly it sounds like applying to start in 2020, with results in hand is the way forward. The work experience is a necessity, and if she doesn't have any, cramming some in at the same time as a one year A level just isn't possible.

To be honest a year out anyway might be a good idea. She's very muddled - strong in humanities - but taking three science A levels? Vet degrees are science degrees. Law totally different skill set. Is it the prestige of the careers?

Vet med is significantly more competitive than human and dental med btw - nothing can be guaranteed.

VetMed is as hard, if not harder, to get into than Medicine, so the competition is fierce, and I would second the PP on the fact that Vet Schools are likely to only look at Alevels done within the same year. The only other thing I can add is that a BioMed course would also need Chemistry ALevel. Can we ask why she choose not to do Chemistry at Alevel??

Both of these are very competitive and I'm unsure she would get any place in clearing, so she needs to pick one and go for it basically. The uni is as important as the degree in many cases, particularly for law.

As much as you don't need a law degree to be a lawyer, uou can do a conversion, and there are many routes in, it is hugely competitive though..lmy daughter has just completed her law degreee, about to start her lpc and Is working for a top twenty law firm, and from what she has said pretty much all the solicitors have firsts in law there. It gives a background if your daughter wants a top firm career that I'm not sure is as attainable with a degree in another subject.

However if she really wants to be a vet, then it's not just about doing chemistry, it's about also doing the degree.

With those predictions she may well get some unconditional offers, but you then need to accept it and reject all others. My daughter got an unconditional for law from Reading and rejected it for a higher ranked russel group uni where she only had a conditional offer.leading to much stress.

The other thing to consider is there is a huge leap between a level and gcse.

Nottingham do a foundation year for vet science for those without chemistry A level. Hardly any places but look it up. Friend’s DD has just finished it. She made an uninformed choice regarding A levels and thought Biology was key, (bizarrely as she’s at a grammar school): but they are a bit of an odd family who think they know everything.

However she needs tons of work experience. Never underestimate this. Bristol like 8 weeks minimum. You have to want this course. Even then it’s not guaranteed that you get a place even with the right A levels. Also check about A levels all in one sitting. Some competitive courses insist on this now. They need to know you can cope with the pace of work.

There is also a brilliant vet nursing and bio vet course at Bristol. Friend’s DD did this after rejections for vet sci (2 years - so 8 rejections). It’s a great course and she was very happy doing it. I highly recommend your DD looks at that and other similar courses. They are hard work too.

She's muddled because she lacks experience I think. Get her some voluntary work with animals and send her to observe at crown court in her school holidays. She needs more ideas about which she prefers before she can decide.

The top law firms certainly take many with top class degrees in other subjects. History, Classics, Economics, MFL and others are certainly perfectly acceptable after the GDL one year conversion course. It’s not vital to get a first either. A very high 2:1 will be considered. It is at the Bar.

As a solicitor (trained and worked in a City firm) I agree with BubblesBuddy that many top law firms will positively welcome applicants with non Law first degrees followed by GDL/LPC.

Entry grades for most will be AAA and 2.1 from a "decent" uni for city firms and top regionals.

I thinķ she should look at the Nottingham VetMed access course as her route into vet med if she wants to go down that route.

There is also a possitive push for STEM/Tech lawyers at present.

Bluntness I find it hard to accept that my DD who trained and was taken on as an associate at a Magic Circle firm had plenty of colleagues who did not have firsts whereas your own DD at a top twenty says everyone needs a first. They really do not. Admittedly the overwhelming majority are from Oxford or Cambridge. But firsts - no.

ShalomJackie STEM/Tech are in vogue but there's still plenty of room for the bog standard Historian etc in MC firms too.

She is naturally a writer, more humanities subject student rather than science, but is taking biology and psychology a-level

I am struggling to match this sentence with someone who wants to do vet. Med .

Ds1 is starting vet med this month. Every university has slightly different requirements of what the applicant needs to do in terms of work experience.
Ds1 was predicted AAA in Chemistry, physics and biology.
The process is hard, the application is very competitive and there is no guarantee of success.
There are some gateway courses which can offer a way into vet med if they are eligible.

who did not have firsts whereas your own DD at a top twenty says everyone needs a first

I'm not sure why you're having a go. I didn't say everyone needs a first, re read my post, I said at the firm she was at, pretty much they all did, and all the partners definitely do.

I'm not going to name the firm, but I do know when she told the partner for her department she got a first, she was employed before her degree results came in, he responded with "we all got firsts here"and their bios indicate this is accurate.

They are not all oxbridge though. Far from it. But it's a multi National so you'd expect that. Different firms have different criteria.

As said, no need to have a go, every need to read and comprehend before having said go though.

Hi all, thanks for your replies and advice.

She is certainly very muddled. She has some work experience lined up in a vets practise, 3 weeks at 3 different vets, and has been on the farm. It all seems that so much needs to go right for vet med to be realistic. It just seems such a big risk, but hopefully her work experience will help her decide if it’s worth the gamble.

She is going to go sit in some court hearings over the next few weeks. We have listened to law talks at open days and she seemed very interested, although she is now probably more confused!

We are still trying to decide whether to apply this year, but I think the most likely situation is that she will apply this year and see what comes her way and a-level grades next summer.

She is applying to some top universities for law so who knows if any offers will come from then. Any advice or tips you have on this?

Thank you all for your advice, it’s very helpful!

I did read it Bluntness and the clear implication was that top twenty and anything above is wall to wall first class degrees. Nothing personal at all intended, but worth correcting. I'm surprised at the comment about partners too, because the further back in time you go, the less stellar - as a whole - the CVs.

OP what sort of tips are you after? Is she going for interviewing unis? Two of my DD applied to Oxford, Durham, UCL, Bristol etc but I'm not sure there's anything obviously useful I can think of. Is she sitting the LNAT?

It really wasn't the implication. You've genuinely read something into it that was not there.

I can't really see how it wasn't the implication. Anyhow, no matter, a first isn't required even for the very top, very most competitive firms. It's about more than that. A first is neither necessary not sufficient.

Yes she is applying to Oxford and Bristol, potentially a top London uni as well. Really just looking for some advice r.e. personal statement, LNAT, interview etc. or just some general experience of the law schools. She is also applying to Southampton and maybe Reading.

If her grades are good she'll probably get a very swift offer from Bristol. LNAT is absolutely crucial for Oxford, even with a full house of A* at GCSE. Personal statement - don't mention vetmed! - although the reality is that lots of lawyers are polymaths and are equally drawn to other disciplines. What sort of books has she read? Don't say you want to go into the legal profession! ie stick to why she wants to study academic law. Just tossing out idle thoughts here. Both of my DDs really enjoyed their respective colleges at Oxford - still keep in regular touch - and had really excellent teaching.