League tables, Russell Group, prestige, etc

[purplegreen99]

I know this can be a bit of can of worms, but I want to try and understand what (if any) importance these things have to students and graduates.

Both my dd and nephew are applying to uni this year. It's a while since I was at uni so I've had a look at various league tables and things like RG membership to get an idea of which universities are considered the 'best'. RG didn't exist when I was a student, but I suppose there was still a hierarchy of the older universities, then the newer ones, then polytechnics, then HE colleges.

Both dd and dn have been told by their schools they should be looking at RG. But looking at various league tables, it seems that non-RG universities like UEA & Lancaster rank fairly high, whereas some RG like Liverpool and Cardiff, are lower.

How much does it matter? I don't think either dd or dn have any interest in careers like law, banking, etc where university does seem to be important. But I could imagine one or both of them doing postgrad study, so maybe if they end up applying for PG courses, being a graduate of a research-focused RG institution might be an advantage?

They both have shortlists of about 7 or 8 to whittle down, both with a mix of RG and non-RG, but all seem to be ranked in the top 20 or so. I've said to dd to choose the ones where she finds the course most interesting and felt comfortable at the open day with the town, campus, department, etc (obviously with a realistic mix of grade requirements too).

So perhaps I don't need to be posting this, but I am really curious, not so much about how universities gain their reputations, but how much the reputation matters to students who don't want to get into a top law firm or similar?

How would you weigh prestige vs personal factors? How employers would evaluate such choice? There is balance between the prestige in general and the likelihood specifically for the individual to succeed a good degree classification, enjoy the course, and end up with a good graduate job at a particular university. I've been pondering this with Ds who wants to study Computing. For him the second part is critical due to SEN. One of the latest considerations is that he will probably go off the rails if going to live on campus, so we thought a foundation year at a uni where he can commute from home could be a good transition. The highest ranking commutable uni is Brunel, which is not overwhelming, but reasonable. Ideally he would go to Southampton or Surrey, maybe even Warwick. Due to his SEN he needs a very geeky career, not a 'business IT' and communication heavy job, so Southampton could be ideal. But for this he needs to resit his A levels, take a year to gain more independence and move on campus. Or Foundation at Brunel. I suppose he could move to a higher ranking uni for a MEng (Master). Could you discuss?

Just want to clarify that A levels resits are due to prolonged sickness. He is very bright, has predicted AAA. Panics in exams.

Xenia, your examples are of relatively small employers.

Good new graduate roles will attract huge numbers of applicants so employers sift. Often by 2.1, perhaps by some sort of psychometric or aptitude testing, and often by using a multi stage recruitment process for an internship and then using that internship as a prolonged interview.

Whether an institution blind process delivers greater diversity is something for researchers. As perhaps is the whether the initial testing delivers the right interview candidates. (DH claims the people he now interviews are rather "samey" as the interesting outliers have gone.) I would expect though that in more technical areas, it helps to have taken a more rigourous degree, and that more rigourous degrees are possible on courses with higher entry requirements.

I also expect that in many places local employers often look to local Universities for graduates with vocational degrees to fill vacancies.

Barristwers chambers though, will probably be different again.

I did an 'academic' course at a RG university and with hindsight I'd personally say - for a non-vocational degree aim for the best possible university, but for a degree with a clear career path this matters less (unless you're aiming for a highly competitive graduate position with a top employer who will have their pick of the best candidates)

This.

A 2.2 from Cambridge is a 2.2

You can't get into grad schemes that ask for a 2.1

If you suspect you might get an Oxbridge 2.2, don't go to oxbridge. Noone is going to cut you any slack.

CakesandTea 'How would you weigh prestige vs personal factors?'

Personal factors do matter a lot. In the case of an SEN you've surely got to make sure those needs are accommodated, ahead of any other considerations. Brunel may not be the highest ranking but it's certainly not low for comp. sci. It appears to have quite high entry standards but low research rating, but for your DS doing a foundation year, the latter is probably not a particularly important criterion whereas for a bright geek the former may be. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

Yes, I was going to say similar - several friends' children have done computer science or related degrees & some of the less well-known unis seem to be well-regarded for this subject. Also as someone says above, the prestige issue may be less relevant for vocational subjects.

A few people have mentioned support services - I'm wondering how you find out about these? I've seen pastoral care info at open days which is good, but I imagine if you ask any university what would happen if your dc needed support in some way, they would all claim to have great pastoral care. My feeling was that finding departmental staff likeable and approachable at open day might be as good a guide as any to whether your dc is likely to be able to get support if needed?

BubblesBuddy Lancaster is in the top 10 of all the university league tables, and is The Times university of the year.

“I think any employer who wouldn’t consider an applicant with a 2:1 from Oxbridge but would take a 1st from the university of Nowhere that hands them out like Smarties is utterly nuts!!!”

It depends on the job. Where I work they would probably interview both candidates if they had strong application letters/CVs, and would give the best candidate the job regardless of their degree class or where they went to university. But I don’t work for a high profile law/accountancy/city firm.

Grad schemes are not only one way in. Even for city jobs there is a well worn path of vocational degrees at universities of Nowhere, which then lead to jobs in big name banks who have based their backroom operations in Nowhere. Such banks work closely with local education providers to ensure that there is a pool of suitably skilled applicants available.

Once in an organisation the sky is the limit. You can always take a Masters later if you need to. It is perfectly possible for the graduate from Nowhere to be forging ahead with a career, having made the most of every opportunity offered including gaining a first, whilst the Oxbridge or RG humanities graduate is sitting there waiting for doors to open.

How to choose a university:

• decide what subject/ subject area you are interested in

• decide whether you want to live at home, move away, want a campus or non campus uni. Do you want city life or something quieter?

• search on ucas to see which uni's offer the subject you're interested in.

• look at unistats to compare things like employability, student satisfaction, entry requirements etc. Compare on a subject level as well as institutional. Some universities may not score highly overall but may be a subject specialist.

• shortlist uni's that fit your criteria and predicted grades.

• visit these universities and speak to tutors, students and look at facilities.

• pick a first and an insurance choice.

Of course not all universities are equal and some are excellent all rounders where as others are subject specialists.

Remember, RG unis are a group of self selected universities who simply share the same mission. It isn't a quality mark - in the main it's just an excellent marketing campaign!
Most employers don't discriminate against institutions anymore - in fact many of the larger firms are adopting a process of blind applications.

That is a good list bue mine would be

1. Choose how much you want to earn eg over £100k and look at which careers and routes you take to earn that money.

1. Decide if you want to take a career specific degree course eg medicine or a more general course -in all cases I agree one you are interested in and will facilitate your chosen career path.

1. Get into the best university you can - as a marker if it takes people with low grades and you will get high ones avoid it.

1. Look at CVs of people newly in the jobs you want to go into and look at where they went to university - most of them - there will be outliers but look at where most went to .

Other things like type of halls, campus or not, food, distance, travel as just not that important. Learning to cope with things you hate is good for you anyway.

Don't look at employbility as it often means a job at £20k for life or in Macdonalds and surveys can be fixed fairly easily.

No need to visit anywhere unless you really want to.

1. Choose how much you want to earn eg over £100k and look at which careers and routes you take to earn that money

I sort of agree but if you aren't going to get AAA+ then those careers are closed anyway.

@xenia sorry but your advice is not great.
Mine comes from over 15 years of working in careers and student recruitment.

Not everyone wants a job that earns over £100k. They aren't that easy to come by and are often stressful. What if you want to be a nurse, midwife, teacher etc. I'm a senior academic but don't earn anywhere close the £100k.
Salary shouldn't be the sole reason you choose a career.

Visiting a university is vital before making such an enormous decision. Going to university is likely to be the second biggest investment a person makes behind buying a house. Would you buy a house without seeing it?
If a student doesn't like where they are studying they are likely to drop out or not perform to their full potential. I know student experience is dirty phrase on MN but it's so important. Not only should you visit the institution but you should also visit the town or city. You will be living there for at least three years.
The standard advice is to at least visit those you plan to apply to.

Also, learning to cope with things you hate is actually very hard if it means living with constant anti-social behaviour in not very nice accomodation. That advice is easy to give if you have a good budget and can afford to live where you choose. That doesn't apply to all students. Sometimes things you hate (such as other people's anti-social behaviour) isn't good for you and can make you ill.

And yes of course you should visit where you are going to live.

@captain the problem with some of the advice given on these types of threads is that is coming from a position of privilege. The issues faced by less advantaged young people just aren't considered.

And some of the views seem wilfully dismissive. Almost as if...posters were showing off a bit.

Sometimes I can't believe some of the attitudes are even coming from RL experiences as they are so deliberately odd (apart from xenia who is very consistent in her attitude about life being better if you can earn extremely well and I respect that she's done amazingly without a bloke to back her up, but plenty of kids actually WANT jobs that don't pay 100k)

When I was working as a careers adviser I would always challenge those young people whose sole reason for being interested in a profession was the salary. There's nothing wrong with it being a contributory factor but there is so much more to a career than money.

Almost as if...posters were showing off a bit.
Surely that's never a thing that happens on MN!

There's a saying something like, 'find a job you love and you'll never have to work again'.

Well, even a job you mostly love will always include some tedious or unpleasant aspect, but salary isn't the be-all and end-all for everyone. I've studiously avoided promotion because I don't want to manage, I like doing what I'm doing and it allows for a better work-life balance. (Though I guess I only got to the place where I could somewhat decide my terms by working hard on PhD and early years of career).

Yet the suggestion that jobs over £100k are not for the likes of us, very hard to get and you won't like them anyway is very much a reason some women could earn a lot end up in low paid work moaning about meeting their weekly costs on Mumsnet in 10 years' time surely? Why shouldn't girls aim high? Someone has to.

Oh, absolutely- if that's what a girl wants to do then all power to her elbow! Just that it's not everyone's priority, female or male.

I got a 2:2 from a poly and am a senior lecturer at a Uni which apparently may well soon be admitted to the RG. Hasn’t held me back either, having a degree from a crap institution. I did do post grad study at 2 different RG universities.

Personally I would say that course ranking should be prioritised above RG status. That and course syllabus/modules and NSS.

Nobody has suggested that jobs over 100k aren't 'for the likes of us'
But you need to understand that not everyone aspires to that and to use that as a criteria for selecting a university is not sensible.

Some people choose a career based on interest, talent and passion.

Of course but those who are going there to forge a high paid career need to listen to different advice from those who want to go into other equally worthy but low paid areas of work; that's all I'm saying.

So I suspect we all agree- work out your end goal (£1m a year as an equity partner in Ernst and Young or £30k a year teaching, or doctor on £100k or academic on whatever they earn and work backwards from there and if you aren't sure aim as high as you can because it is much much easier to fall than rise later on.

Why shouldn't girls aim high? Someone has to.

I encourage my dd to aim high, but to me that means a satisfying, stimulating, interesting and worthwhile job that allows a reasonable work/life balance, time for other interests/relaxing, and a salary that means bills can be paid without worry. I don't think there's anything wrong with aiming to earn a mega salary, and I know some people thrive on high pressure/long hours jobs, but I don't think salary is the best way to measure career success.