Is further maths ok as one of three a levels?

[Thethingswedoforlove]

Eg maths, further maths and one other? Or is it always considered by universities / employers as an adjunct/ additional or fourth subject? Confused that as one of three it might not ‘cut it’ and can’t seem to get a clear answer from school or uni websites.....

Most schools AFAIK (but happy to be corrected) take the kids through maths A level in a year and then do further maths in the second year.

I don't know whether it's most. None of those my children have been at (4) or looked at for 6th form (another couple) do it like this.

One of the things that always puts me off Cambridge is the fact that each individual college can set their own entry requirements and offer grades, and it's difficult and/or tedious to check them all.

The prospective student only has to check the colleges they're interested in, and if they can't be bothered to put in that modest amount of effort then maybe it's just as well if they are put off. In any case, if they're a strong candidate but don't exactly meet the criteria for the college they apply to they'll probably be pooled and get an offer from a different one.

I agree with Errol As I find I always do.

But you might find yourself having to look through a few! You don't know before you start, is my point. Other universities manage to be a bit more upfront, I'm not sure why Cambridge can't collate the information. It's not really an issue though if it puts me off, I'm not the one doing the looking or the applying

I mean, surely you have to narrow it down by working out which colleges you can apply to before you start deciding which ones you're interested in? Doing it the other way round is pointless.

It's an entirely academic argument. I'm ill in bed and bored.

There's not actually such a great degree of inconsistency in the grade requirements. A versus A* in some situations.

Cambridge also has a pooling system - as does the other place, I believe. So even if you work out where you want to go to (which is advisable) you might get pooled and then have the requirements of an entirely different college to take into account.

You probably won't need to email anyone, it will be clear from the websites. DS1 is at Oxford reading maths and has M, FM, and physics A levels. DS2 is doing the same and wants to study engineering. I haven't found anywhere that he wants to apply where it would be a problem - on the contrary they seem to be the preferred three.

When it comes to selecting A levels a good principle to bear in mind is to keep as many options open as possible.

So for instance the A level combo that George has suggested would rule out medicine as a career. I was about to post that I do know people who've only done M/FM/Physics at A level but they were all engineers.

Keep the options as open as possible.

The 2018 cohort were the last to do the old style maths and FM A levels so you are also into new territory with the reformed A levels. DS did both subjects over 2 years, but with physics and chemistry.

Also bear in mind some DC find the jump to maths A level hard, FM is harder. The grammar sixth form DS looked at would only allow DC to take FM as a fourth subject in case they wanted to drop it so that they still had 3 subjects.

Yes that's true. it's a big leap from GCSE to A level in Maths

Just quickly worth posting that there's a lot of stuff out there for Mathsy kids which will help with the transition and give them some stuff to engage with www.ukmt.org.uk/individual-competitions/. The Maths challenges are super for mathsy kids

DS did get through to the Maths Olympiad where he said he got stumped because he really wasn't good enough at maths :(

Also to add that I know both Oxford and Cambridge embrace STEP papers for maths. It's worth thinking about these. Because the thing is with mathsy kids is that A level maths and further maths isn't going to be enough to differentiate. DS only did the basic STEP paper (he didn't apply for maths) but there are several STEP papers and it's worth thinking about those too. Some universities make offers for maths that are based around those STEP papers.

To some extent it depends.

Some observations:

1. Most courses with a demanding maths content, would probably prefer FM to an unrelated A level. DS was amazed at how quickly his peers (on an economics degree, but one with some stiff compulsory maths courses) without FM were expected to make up the ground.

1. Universities are interested in potential. Maths/FM A level are imperfect indicators. All sorts of factor kick in. Quality of teaching, level of tutoring (in retrospect this led to quite a marked difference in performance and perception of ability at DCs selective London schools, and is probably an issue in the recruitment of overseas students), approach, SEN (A levels are timed tests, so creative but quirky mathematicians can come unstuck), even boredom. One natural mathematician we know seems to have underperformed through till the start of Yr13. In a relatively unselective state school she was able to get top marks with next to no effort. FM and STEP have provided challenge and informed her about the sort of course she wants to take.

1. Similarly GCSE maths is an imperfect predictor of performance at A level. And A level is an imperfect predictor of performance at University. It is not uncommon for a pupil to get an A* in Maths but a C in FM. Nor to see a maths student at Cambridge or Warwick move sideways into economics or physics after their first year. DS oddly did the opposite. Never anywhere near a top maths set at school and initially unsure whether he was capable of taking FM, he has embraced the quantitative side of economics to the extent that he has just started a fully funded PhD at a top US University.

1. Some courses will be concerned that three A Levels including double maths is too narrow. Medicine is an obvious example. Also for a natural mathematician with access to good teaching, double maths is nowhere near the level of work that two humanities A levels would be. Though with the counter that maths A level for a non mathematician, perhaps because a parent feels it is a "good thing", can be hell on earth and really time consuming.

1. Entry to top quantitative courses can be very competitive. LSE economics takes just one in every 11 applicants. Cambridge NatSci rejects some very very bright applicants. Potential is the key, so Universities will do their best to allow for sub-optimal teaching, or to look beyond the A* production lines emerging from top private schools. It is worth considering how a DCs application will be perceived and how much more they might need to offer to earn the place.

1. Education rarely goes amiss. Both mine took 5 A levels and both have benefitted from the wider knowledge. DS took double maths but was also able to take history as well as economics, which will do him no harm at all. Indeed even scientists sometimes have to write. The work load on top courses can be immense, indeed second year Cambridge NatSci seems to have acquired a reputation of its very own. (Content may the same elsewhere but those short terms make for very intense learning.) So experience of managing and thriving with a heavier load can be useful. Buts its about context. DS was at a school where four A levels was routine and 70% of exams were at A level. Not offering four (at least for scientists - humanities are different) and not having a good set of A predictions would therefore raise eyebrows with admissions officers (and offers were often based on four.) Despite ticking these boxes DS still received three rejections. Potential can be harder to prove if you start with educational advantage.

Thanks. Some really helpful and thoughtful posts here.

Any other experiences or views?

Outside of the most competitive universities (and medicine) further maths clearly counts as a third A level - it brings in the UCAS points of a third A level.

For Maths, for example, you could get into all but Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial with Maths, FM and Physics at A level although you would "need" STEP for Warwick, UCL. (Non STEP offers require multiple A stars.)

Even for those four universities, some students will come in with only three A levels, as this is all they could take at their colleges. Performance in MAT for Oxford/interviews for Oxbridge are going to play much more of a role in determining offers than number of A levels.

For Maths, for example, you could get into all but Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial with Maths, FM and Physics at A level

See my and George's posts above: you could get into Oxford and Imperial with those A levels too.

And as far as I can make out, LSE don't even do a straight maths degree. However they do accept Maths, FM +1 on some of their degree courses.

You can get into Oxford and Imperial Maths with 3 A levels - but it is true that most successful applicants for Maths there will have more than 3 i.e. one could claim that not having 4 puts you at some disadvantage (although as I said MAT is a big factor).

Not having 4 is a non-issue for e.g. Warwick - which makes completely transparent offers based on grades/grade predictions.

LSE do Maths, Stats and Business; Financial Maths; Maths and Economics. These degrees are pretty similar to the maths degrees offered by maths departments that have large stats/operational research divisions.

So why not just say that in the first place user?

Because I would very strongly dissuade a student with Oxbridge potential who wants to study Maths at Imperial, Oxford, Cambridge etc from taking only 3 A levels, if doing 4 (including FM) is an option at their college.

In my experience it does put the student at a disadvantage for getting into those courses. It will inevitably raise the issue of whether the student can cope with the high pace and workload.

“Most schools AFAIK (but happy to be corrected) take the kids through maths A level in a year and then do further maths in the second year.”

At DD’s school all A level subjects are taken at the end of year 13. Good universities like to see that students can cope with the workload of exams taken all in one go.

“So for instance the A level combo that George has suggested would rule out medicine as a career”

Thesearepearls is correct. DD looked at medicine last year, and every medical school she looked at would only accept further maths as a fourth A level because they count maths and further maths as one subject.

LSE do have a maths department. Though only offer financial maths. They seem to have changed their entry requirements in response to the dropping of AS. In the past for economics they wanted to see AS FM (taught or self study) but did not count A level FM in their offer.

Now they will accept 3 including FM and go as far as saying FM is useful. (Even with FM plenty struggle with the compulsory maths modules.) But as user suggests the competition is such that you need to be careful about only offering three unless you have compelling reasons.

Equally if you are only able to take three and are having to cope with weak or inconsistent teaching, you should not be put off from applying to very oversubscribed courses. Universities want potential, and will try their best to find it.

FWIW one big advantage of the speciist London Universities is that it appears possible to flex your degree a lot depending on whether you adapt well to University level maths. DS claimed that you could gain a degree from the ecomonics department and only take 2 maths courses (he might have managed three!) and a friend of DDs seems to be managing similar within a physics degree.

Caveat is that this only applies to very competitive courses.Few Universities will be so demanding. For others better grades in three will normally trump weaker grades in four.

There isn't a general right and wrong answer - it's obviously going to depend on the individual students aptitude's and aspirations, together with the quality of teaching available to them for various subjects.

If the student has the ability to get excellent grades in more than 3 subjects then of course it's good for them to be allowed do them. Apart from the factors already discussed, needsmoresleep raises the question of what happens if they don't adapt so well to degree level maths. If they've only done 2xmaths and physics their options will be limited. One of DDs friends for various reasons decided being a Cambridge mathmo wasn't suiting her - as she also had A* in a language (and maybe another arts subject too), she's able to start again doing modern & medieval languages.

Ive spotted a typo. The LSE may let you get an economics degree with only two economics courses, and lots and lots of maths courses. (Not the other way round.) But it is a huge course with loads of options. So you can avoid maths altogether in your final year. The big problem is that there are some first and second year compulsory maths courses which some find very difficult. So if you can only take three and are aiming for a rigourous quantitative course I would opt for Maths and FM and one other. (If, obviously, FM is available.)

Errol I once read something about how many switch out of maths after their first year at places like Cambridge and Warwick. It is not uncommon.

My DC doing theoretical physics at Imperial did 4 A levels including maths and FM (but did n't bother with STEP). An A* in FM appears to be the norm for that course.
DC thinks that quite a few students with A* in FM can struggle even in the first year adapting to this maths heavy degree partly because they cannot rely on recognition of question type as can be done from practice with past questions in FM A level. Students have to cope with tackling unfamiliar questions in exams as well as in problem sheets. Of course the maths concepts required also have to be assimilated rapidly as a lot of material gets covered during even just one lecture.
It would seem that if getting a top grade at FM A level requires hard work and a student does not have the advantage of being a more intuitive mathematician then this type of degree will be challenging.

Apart from the factors already discussed, needsmoresleep raises the question of what happens if they don't adapt so well to degree level maths. If they've only done 2xmaths and physics their options will be limited.

I have know Cambridge Maths students transfer to History, Computer Science, Economics, Engineering, HSPS (Human, Social and Political Sciences).... and in at least some cases this was without having A levels except Maths, FM, Physics + other science. Transferring to Management Studies for the third year (this is a third year course only) is also not uncommon.

I agree that Maths, FM and Physics is quite narrow - but it certainly leaves open all of those possibilities named above, apart from History (which would indeed usually require an essay A level subject).

At our school Maths and Further Maths are taught as one course over the two years. If you're interested and good at Maths, this is no problem. Everyone takes at least two additional subjects for A level.

I find age 16 is far too young to become so specialised.