Oxford application still possible for DD?

[jojosholt]

Hiya,
Apologies if this is long but I could desperately do with another perspective here. While realistic about the likelihood of getting in, DD wants to apply to Oxford for English during her year out. However, for her A levels she achieved AAB with an A at EPQ.
From a google she thinks her college should be up for contextual flagging (never sent a pupil to Oxbridge, 2% to Russel Group, 5% to top third of unis, government deemed 'below average' etc), the A* was in English Lit (100% in Paper one and coursework), the B in art. She is now determined to take an extra A level while doing the art foundation she had planned for her gap year. Do you think this is worth it or should I break it to her gently that there's little point in applying?
Thank you

The standard Oxford offer for English is AAA. A contextual offer might be AAB but I think realistically your DD would have to tick a number of boxes to be offered this post A level.

Poorly performing school would be one, but I think she would also need to show other disadvantages. Do you live in an area with low access to higher education? Is she from a family on benefits? Does she have English as an additional language? Does she come from an under represented minority group? Does she have a disability etc?

A very high score on the English Language Aptitude test (ELAT) would help her.

Most Oxford colleges have access officers who are keen to attract applicants from non traditional backgrounds. I would get her to give them a call and discuss

As others have said, she gets 5 choices. With those grades she will get unconditional offers from a number of good universities so she will lose nothing by including Oxford on her list.

I'm a tutor involved in Oxford English admissions. We do sometimes get applications from people doing a one-year Art Foundation who then realise (often having done better than expected in their A levels) that they would like to read English at university.

One important factor here is that our standard conditional (i.e. the conditions which candidates who have not yet sat their A levels have to meet) offer is AAA. We would, I think, look more favourably on a candidate who was planning to resit the A-level in which they got a B, or who was taking a different A-level in their gap year in which they were predicted an A. Some Senior Tutors and some colleges might not allow tutors to admit a candidate with AAB post-qual without any attempt to improve the grade (though we do sometimes admit students who don't make their offer if there are extenuating circumstances).

The resources here put online by a colleague might help:

stylisticienne.com/on-becoming-a-little-bit-more-expert/

A strong ELAT score is an important part of our selection process. As others have said, if she is applying to a range of universities for English, there is no reason not to try for Oxford with an A*. But she needs to be realistic: far more people apply than we have places for.

@Dustylaw @Movablefeast @EnidBlyton1 @HavelockVetinari thank you! I guess we're making the haul to Oxford after all, or at least she is. DD is determined not to retake art, reckons it'd be less work to do a fact based subject than spend another few hundred hours painting for a B (I don't get how that happened, I'd never tell her but she's actually alright at the art malarkey!). Is the ELAT not compulsory? (thank you for your offer @HavelockVetinari but I'm afraid we're in the depths of the north)

Agree with all the great advice above - open day and the ELAT are worth getting moving on ASAP

Any chance her B in art can be remarked? Was she predicted an A?

The English Facilty of Oxford University has a very clear web site which lists what you need to do to apply. The ELAT test is one thing but work from school has to be submitted too. So read it through together. Also, speak to her school. They cannot be completely useless re Oxford applications.

If her school is one of their flagged ones, Oxford must have a good reason not to interview her. However the standard offer is AAA so they may not like the B. It depends how they view it against the A*. They say they do not make lower offers for their flagged schools. So the worry might be that other flagged school candidates have a third academic subject with an A.

They are, however, a bit confusing in what other A levels they like. They insist on English of course, but then say History and MFL are useful but they also say that the other two don’t matter as long as one is not General Studies. They don’t say anything about taking them all in one sitting but obviously most candidates do and it might be in the general admissions info. Therefore be very careful about doing another A level.

You really need to go to an open day and preferably a subject day to get a view on these questions. Or look at the FAQ section on their web site and see if anything is relevant. It’s an early application (mid October) so there isn’t much time. They give guidance on the personal statement and she needs to really convince them that this is the course for her. She only has the one essay subject so I would imagine her test and submitted Work will be important. They interview around 60% and give offers to around 23% but they don’t make it clear if that is 23% of those interviewed or of all candidates. Probably the former.

However, do apply. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

@virelai thank you! The art foundation won't count against her then? Does it matter if she takes a new a level instead of resitting art?

@Movablefeast from what I can recall she was predicted an A, yes actually. The remarks are very expensive for art, and apparently a senior moderator was there so it's unlikely to change

@BubblesBuddy the school couldn't even get her teachers for half her subjects, so I wouldn't be at all surprised. Thank you for your advice, it really is useful!

The trouble with Art is that it is moderates rather than marked, it means you can't remark one candidate but have to appeal and risk the grades of all of them.

Virelai - the Oxford University general Admissions information says that the named A levels should be completed in a 2 year period. How could a candidate then submit further work for an Art A level a year later making it a 3 year period? Would the whole A level not have to be repeated or can you just keep resubmitting until you get the result you like/want? It’s very confusing.

DD has A grade at Art for A level. Good teaching and advice is paramount. It’s not just about being good at art. You have to do what is required not just what you want.

The usual caveat applies here that decisions are made by small groups of subject tutors based in colleges, working within centrally agreed policies and guidelines. I'm given my in good faith advice based on 15 years of experience at three colleges.

I think our current wording is "The usual expectation is that candidates will complete the A-levels specified in their applications within a two year period." We have a number of applications from students on gap years each year. Most have their AAA or better, but occasionally a few are retaking have dropped a grade in one subject for some reason despite doing well in the other two, and are retaking and reapplying in order to meet the AAA requirement. Their personal statement and their reference usually explain some extenuating circumstances for the dropped grade. We've certainly admitted at least one recent candidate who retook his third A-level the year after the other two to move it from a B to an A, but there were mitigating circumstances and he did achieve the A.

That being said, he was a candidate with a lot of potential from a non-traditional background with clear mitigating circumstances, who did very well on our ELAT and sent very strong written work. Though the "usual expectation" is AAA in two years, there are a few candidates who will not fit this pattern. We have some flexibility to be able to take account of circumstances outside of a candidate's control, as we are balancing potential against achievement. IF she is good enough (i.e. excellent GCSEs (in context), excellent ELAT (ditto), strong written work (ditto), strong personal statement and references), and there were mitigating circumstances relating to the dropped grade and if she were committed to meeting the offer, then she would be under consideration alongside the rest of our very able applicants. That's no guarantee of anything, but she would be under consideration.

As to Art v another subject, it's hard to be definitive here. On the one hand Art complements her Foundation course and would perhaps make more sense to us (she's someone who loves both literature and art), but I take the point that it has some differences from other A-levels and it might be harder to work her way up to an A or A*. But the idea that she could get an A in one year from scratch in another subject seems less likely and might seem risky from our point of view? Realistically, either way would be a long shot, but neither are impossible for an Oxford English application, particularly if there were mitigating school factors, given that she has done very well for English and the EPQ.

All the advice to get to the September Open Day if possible and talk to tutors and tutors for admissions is spot on. She'll be able to get detailed advice about what her best course of action is, though I suspect much of the advice will be of the 'not impossible but not usual' variety. It is frustrating/confusing, I know, that we don't have absolutes here, but we need some flexibility to allow for unconventional routes in, while still giving generally applicable 'usual expectations. HTH.

Honestly I would get your DD to contact admissions at Oxford and speak to them directly. Ask their opinion on her grade offering and gap year plans.
I am a teacher and we always advise for Oxford that it is academics above everything else.
Make sure you have researched the additional entrance requirements, GCSE grades, additional entrance tests. Get a strong personal statement written and ready to give to teachers to review at the start of September. The earlier deadline means it can be a rush doing Oxbridge entries and she doesn't want to have to compete with this years students for her teacher's time.

It’s a low achieving school so no one is advising for Oxford. It’s a hens teeth scenario!

Everyone here has advised about what is required. The big question is what to do about the B in Art during the gap year. What would you advise sherbert?

OP: I know someone currently studying English at Oxford who first did an art foundation course. She had better A level grades than your daughter, but no EPQ. She clearly had no trouble in persuading the college of her wish to pursue both art and English.

Oxford don’t ask for an EPQ. They don’t appear to mention it as being part of their analysis of candidates. Maybe not all schools offer it so it’s not available to all?

... but if you have a high grade in an E P Q in Y12 relevant to your desired course of study you are more likely to get an interview.

Where does it say that Wurzelburga? On the Oxford web site? She’s more likely to get an interview because she’s at a flagged school. Oxford say they don’t lower their offers though, even for a flagged school candidate, but they should interview.

It says to include your research from your EPQ in your PS but selection is A levels. I suggest the op reads Oxford’s information.

@Bubbles - sorry, I read your comment on EPQ out of context.

My point was a general one - that candidates with a good EPQ result in Y12 can include that in their Oxbridge application submitted early in Y13 and it is one more thing that can differentiate their application from that of all the other candidates with a string of A*/9 at GCSE and excellent predicted grades for A level. The work done also gives them more to include in their PS and provides material outside the A level curriculum to discuss at interview.