Prospective Medical student - when’s best to start work experience?

[Cherrypips]

My DS is going into yr 11 - he has a crammed school and extra-curricular life but knows he will need some relevant work experience for medical school applications. From experience, what have your DC found works best? Thanks

[goodbyestranger]

Wonky I'm smart enough not to post anything personal at all, ever, either about the DC or myself. School grades and uni destinations are hardly classified info! My family is readily identifiable anyhow since there are eight DC so it's just not a deal. None of the DC care two hoots but thank you for your concern. I object when people name their school etc or my specific geographical area purely on the grounds that that's my call, not theirs, and against the rules, but mumsneedwine is quite right - these threads shouldn't be hijacked by unpleasant posts/ posters and if you read back you'll see how you just dived in to have a go. So perhaps now leave it alone and answer the original post or else go?

[WonkyWay]

Goodbye. Don't tell me to leave the thread that's really rude. You were the first one to be snarky in this thread. No one else had been before you. I posted a helpful post (Sunday 15:37) and your response to it was rude and pompous (17:21)

I was trying to help the OP by saying that there can be other reasons for doing WE or volunteering other than just getting an offer. I don't mind people disagreeing with things I post but it's annoying when people are rude.

[goodbyestranger]

Well this is uber boring for others but no, my post of 17.21 was neither rude nor pompous you chose to say it was presumably as a platform to launch into a weird unprovoked thing about my DS.

I really deplore rudeness too. You'd be hard pushed to find any post of mine which was objectively rude.

If you have a problem then perhaps move it off a main thread and address me directly through a message. I probably wouldn't reply but you could at least then get whatever is on your chest off your chest without derailing these threads.

[Needmoresleep]

Hmm. I think it would be helpful if Stranger and Mumsneedwine were to object to the content of mine and Wonky's advice. Rather than demand we leave the thread.

I appreciate that with four and three offers apiece your DC absolutely aced the admissions process, and that is something to be proud of. They are clearly naturals.

But there will be others who find the process a lot tougher. Dd was only able to identify three medical schools likely to give her an interview. She found it tough when school friends got offers and she was still waiting. And, inevitably, I also found it difficult to read posts which suggested it was all a breeze. I have tried to contribute constructively to threads about applying for medicine, partly by acknowledging not everyone finds it easy. I hope others, who perhaps had similar experience, have valued my input. I also know three people who gained very late places, two via MN PM at medical school last year, and both we and DD know (a surprising number of) people who gained places despite missed grades. I have however felt unable to contribute experience, in part because 2018 thread has taken on a rather smug and unwelcoming tone.

I would add that DD describes her first year as the hardest year of her life. The course was fine, but the rest was tough. I was very lucky to have had some sensible advice, including from a couple of academics, which has helped understand that DDs experience was by no means unique, and to help see the path through. Resilience gained from working and volunteering turned out to be invaluable.

On a different point Skiiltans link was really interesting. Yes A level grades reflect acquired knowledge, whilst UKCAT strives to identify aptitude and potential, so are preferred. However observation is that dyslexics/people with slow processing can struggle with these tests. They may be bright enough to find alternative ways to acquire the knowledge that will get them the grades. (DD, say, often rewatches recorded lectures, as she is not good at raking notes.) But are unlikely to perform well in a timed test that relies on an ability to read and process fast. She says there are a vanishingly small number of dyslexics on her course. Perhaps in efforts to level one playing field, they have queered the pitch for others.

On volunteering, DD is expected, as a course requirement, to continue volunteering. Presumably someone thinks it is useful. When we were looking, one medical school suggested they wanted evidence that the applicant was active within the local community. A cafe or shoe zone might do it. DD got this from volunteering at the leisure centre. (Other volunteers were a decade older than her and quite a diverse bunch.) Makes sense really. Medics need to be able to operate outside their social comfort zone, whatever their background.

[Abra1de]

I would add that DD describes her first year as the hardest year of her life. The course was fine, but the rest was tough

I had a weepy daughter on the phone/messaging me a few times before various first-year exams. She actually ended up doing extremely well—top decile—but she didn’t find the application process a breeze at all, either. Getting used to the different teaching style was hard for her once she started at university. She played sport and went out, though, and that helped, and she has some wonderful and supportive friends.

Anyone going through this with an applicant child, take heart. I am crossing my fingers for you all and know there will be late offers to come!

[mumsneedwine]

Please leave me out of the squabbling. I never said anyone should do anything other than be nice. As my dear old slightly batty mum always says, if you've nothing nice to say then say nought.

[EstherMumsnet]

Ahem, we've had some reports about this thread and we think now might be a good moment to suggest everyone is a bit too hot and bothered in this weather, assuming you are all in the UK, and to have a cool drink and stand in front of a fan for a few moments. Or something.

[alreadytaken]

to get back to the original question - Skilltan has explained why evidence of commitment to caring is valued. Long term volunteering is an easy way to demonstrate that commitment if your dc is happy to do it. Mine enjoys volunteering. It was part of their social life/ relaxation time - and something that still is, although obviously not in all the same places. They were asked about their work experience and volunteering at a Cambridge interview, it is not right to assume that will not be discussed at Oxbridge.

Experience with actual medical professionals is bit more difficult to find but the student room has a good wiki. It might surprise some contributors to know how often those with no family connections manage to get some such experience. If you cant get that sort of experience then most young people have some experience of being, or a family member being, a patient. You can talk, choosing your words carefully, about that if asked about seeing a medic at work.

It is not just Oxbridge that provides little clinical experience during the first 3 years, that is also true of those London medical schools that do a 6 year course. Oxbridge medical drop out rates during the courses are very low - but those with higher A level grades tend to drop out less often so hard to know if it is a feature of the type of course or if the drop out rates equally low in those at other medical schools who had similar grades.

Having some experience of dealing with bodily fluids can be useful when you are entering a profession where it's sometimes suggested you choose a specialty by what bodily fluids you can tolerate. Doing something hands on and dirty (even if that is washing up) does seem to be valued.

Reapplicants to medicine often do much better the second time round. They've shown commitment and dedication by reapplying, they quite often work as HCA assistants for a time (ticking the dirty job box) and they apply to their strengths. What any applicant for medicine most needs to know is that they should study what medical schools are looking for and apply to their strengths. And perhaps that medicine is a very competitive profession and that parents of medics can be more competitive than their children.

[Abra1de]

We went through a list of the rare occasions when we had either paid for medical care, such as tonsillectomy, or helped in medical tests/trials. My daughter was in a long-term vaccine trial as a small child and she emailed the team and asked to do some shadowing and they couldn’t have been kinder.

Tonsillectomy consultant never got back to us! But nothing lost in making a polite approach.

But at interviews it was th volunteering and her job in the pub that were most fruitful.

[goodbyestranger]

mumsneedwine to be absolutely fair you did say please feel free to leave to a particular rather aggy poster.

(I'm super cool incidentally, enjoying golf in Scotland in the rain :)).

Needmoresleep the thing is you say there are a couple of posters with bright kids who make the whole thing sound a breeze but is it actually that the kids are no brighter at all but simply take a less military approach? I tend to think you're interpreting the evidence quite differently from me, and assuming the military approach is the only one likely to lead to success in the absence of extreme giftedness whereas my take is that you're making the assumption about talent because the approach doesn't accord with your own. There's a whole lot of logic which could do with unpicking here, because I suspect it's leading to very flawed conclusions.

[goodbyestranger]

alreadytaken I've said on several occasions that DS's cafe work was discussed at his Oxford interviews. Far too often Oxford and Cambridge medicine is poo pooed as being completely 'hands off' - which is wrong.

[mumsneedwine]

Apologies if my rather flippant comment was taken the wrong way. I just want everyone to be nice .
Admissions tutors are awesome at answering questions and explaining what (& how much) work experience is needed.
And no one cares where you go to medical school - F1 posts are blind to Uni. So choose the ones which have a course you like as they differ hugely. Early patient contact is important to some, research to others.

[mumsneedwine]

Oh and none of this has been a breeze !!!UKCAT was devised by a total sadist.

[Needmoresleep]

Military?

We knew some great kids who failed to get offers. And the statistics suggest that a majority of applicants will receive four rejections.

My view is that it is unhelpful to those with DC in this position, who are perhaps looking to MN for support and advice, to effectively suggest the blame somehow lies with them and their inferior parenting.

At some point after Easter it seems traditional for a few worried mums to pop up asking about options, and to receive some very good advice including from some well informed academics. This year this does not seem to have happened. Is this because this years crop is super talented, or might it be because worried lurkers feel intimidated and unwilling to reveal their fallibility.

I also think that accusing me of being 'aggie' is a low move. Neither you nor mumsneedwine know me. Rudeness is unbecoming, presumably even on Scottish golf courses.

[mumsneedwine]

I'm off. Tried to be helpful. And I've not been horrid to anyone. Good luck OP. Get a good UKCAT, apply strategically and be prepared for many months of squeaky bottoms.

[goodbyestranger]

Needmoresleep Honestly, you have become so so super sensitive I don't know where to begin. You do seem to think that all comments are directed at you. They really aren't. You weren't the person I assumed the other poster was referring to, not at all.

Scottish golf courses are an oasis of politeness and etiquette actually, so the 'even' is thoroughly misplaced!

[LoniceraJaponica]

"UKCAT was devised by a total sadist"

Yes it was wasn't it
I am so glad that DD has decided to knock medicine on the head. She is under the CFS/ME team and I just don't think she has the stamina and resilience right now. She is thinking of doing biomed now (which was her original plan A). I wish she would make up her mind, but I am hoping that she will have a better idea after more university open days.

[Needmoresleep]

Lonicera, CFS/ME sounds grim. One positive is that a gap year can be really valuable. The transition to University is much easier with some extra maturity.

I would not, though, agree with the total sadist. I suspect instead it is devised by a commercial firm with a keen interest in making money and a good sales patter. I read somewhere (Cambridge University statistics?) that the aptitude tests they use have a relatively poor correlation with eventual degree results, STEP being the exception. Cambridge dont ask for UKCAT, but I wonder how good a predictor UKCAT actually is. Do students in the top decile regularly outperform those with lower scores?

Stranger, some pretty convoluted language.. and a short memory. I am not super-sensitive at all. Just bruised from other recent bashings on medic threads.

[alreadytaken]

Goodbye you are very competitive, boastful and come across as really aggressive - calling others too sensitive doesnt affect that. But it's best just ignored.

I've put somewhere on mumsnet figures on average scores when medical students apply for F1 places. The highest scores dont always come from Oxbridge, despite students there having the advantage of points for an intercalated degree. Students should apply to their strengths, choosing somewhere they can face living for 5 or 6 years. It's a long time. After F1 students from Oxbridge do a bit better, on average, in passing specialty exams but whether they do better than students with similar grades who went elsewhere is anyone's guess. Those who are good at passing exams tend to go on being good at passing exams.

Having said that if Oxbridge suits your strengths and you'd like to live there then apply there. There are some limited ways in which students can get more early contact with patients if they choose to take them up. It isnt all about research but obviously if you think your career might be in academic medicine then it could be beneficial to have Oxbridge on a cv. Short terms, good grants, long holidays suit some and not others but cheap accommodation and the opportunity to earn more in the holidays can be a benefit.

My child took advantage of the Cambridge option, now removed, to do their clinical experience in London. Comparing their clinical experience with friends at other medical schools suggest that there are common problems at several medical schools - placements a long way from base and how you manage to get to them/ quality of accommodation at the hospital if offered it, disorganisation in the arrangements so the students are not expected, needing to be proactive in seeking out training. Cant speak for Oxford on that as my child was not friends with the Cambridge student who opted to go there for the clinical years. I have been impressed by the opportunities they have now to be involved with research and the support to publish.

The cost of living in London still means I'd discourage students from outside London from applying to London medical schools. Part time work is easier to find but students need it.

[CherryPavlova]

My daughter started building her CV from around year 9. Volunteering at cubs, getting extracurricular qualifications and making sure grades were always highest plus taking on responsibility at school.
Proper work experience from year 10 included an undertakers, a fortnight in a GP practice, a week in an ED, volunteering at a hospice, another fortnight in a hospital placement that included the path labs, the operating theatre, pottering and the elderly care ward. She also set up a befriending scheme at school where sixth form students visited lonely elderly each week.
Was medicine easy? No it was very, very hard to watch her struggle sometimes. She is now 3 years post qualifying and considers retraining as a teacher frequently. Her hourly rate of pay is less than our cleaners. She rarely sees her boyfriend she lives with as they both do so many night shifts.
I’d advise practicing psychometric tests as you can definitely increase your scores with prolonged practice and increased confidence. Ours did an online tutored UKCAT preparation course through Kaplan which was quite good - particularly for abstract thinking.
Look at all admissions criteria for medical schools and apply to ones that play to strengths. Go for interview if you’re child is charismatic and confident but avoid if a nervous, shy geek type etc.

[goodbyestranger]

alreadytaken I've learned to ignore you.

Needmoresleep you yourself said that you were perhaps too sensitive and I was agreeing - posters (including myself) really aren't making digs where you often seem to think they are. Perfectly straightforward and intended to reassure.

Also not sure if you mean my post is convoluted (is it? ) or did you mean your own? (which was a little).

[goodbyestranger]

I don't know about other medical schools but in response to alreadytaken saying she couldn't add information about Oxford: Oxford placements are relatively close to the city (perfectly do-able to come back every weekend), accommodation has always been provided, there seem to be no bog ups with students not needed (never heard of these hiccups at any rate) and there is definitely good support for publication and for research papers to present at conferences etc (DS and a group of his friends have just done this, strongly encouraged by their tutor).

[Needmoresleep]

Perhaps over-empathetic then. You did make a reference to a poster being 'aggie', which is rude whoever it is, and since have been pretty dismissive to alreadytaken, who in my eyes is a star for having given some useful advice when DD was applying. Not really golf-club etiquette.

I now can't resist. DD has been invited to speak at a conference to be held next year at a well respected BMAT institution. It follows on from something she was involved in at school. She has been matter of fact about it. Can I now take it as a big deal?!

And though I know you disagree, I am with alreadytaken on placements. Oxford may be the exception but we are talking about the NHS. Arguably one strength of a course that has early patient exposure is that you learn quickly about how to deal with a lot of administration. I can also see advantage in all placements being commutable, but equally a good range (inner city, rural, diverse populations etc) is also valuable even if it means variable accomodation.

This thread has become weird. Sorry OP. But some valuable contributions. CherryPavlova's experience rings true, though am hoping treatment of junior medics will improve before DD gets there. Using volunteering etc to test that medicine is the right choice, still sounds sensible.

[flissfloss65]

My dc isn’t going into medicine but surely doing some form of medical/caring based volunteering is worthwhile.

It could confirm if a medical career is for them or not.

[swingofthings]

DD opted to take the 'work experience' route to her application to Medicine and indeed chose 3 of the 4 schools that valued such experience.

She did so not just to help her with the process of applying, but also because she's been wanting to work since she was 14. Work is for her source of excitement not misery (and I'm glad my attitude to it didn't rub in!). She started working in a residential home in the kitchen cleaning dishes every week-ends. She then started to help feeding some patients. This moved to her helping more with the caring side of it. At the same time, she did a 9 months programme with the local hospice, again helping with caring for patients and at the end gained the Carer Certificate. About a year after starting at the residential home, and doing some more internal training, she picked up her first care worker shift.

It's the summer before -cross fingers- being off to study medicine and she is working almost FT as a carer. In addition, she contacted the hospice and asked if she could resume doing some volunteering shifts there (she stopped to focus on her A levels) because she missed working with patients. She is now even starting to take on a lead on some shifts because it comes to her naturally and it would seem to have been well received, even by members of staff older than her.

I totally agree that you don't need to do this to know that you want and will be good at being a doctor but I do think it really helps. DD genuinely love working with old people, people with severe dementia, people at the end of life. That's a job that many people would hate, but at 18 only, she is excited about.

What I can say is that it certainly wasn't the list of things she did that helped her application in any way, as a matter of that, she hardly mention where she worked/volunteered, but work experience helped her with her confidence and maturity and I think this showed during the interviews and is the reason why she got three offers out of three interviews.