Prospective Medical student - when’s best to start work experience?

[Cherrypips]

My DS is going into yr 11 - he has a crammed school and extra-curricular life but knows he will need some relevant work experience for medical school applications. From experience, what have your DC found works best? Thanks

[goodbyestranger]

Needmoresleep opinions on various posters will differ wildly. I find the accusations of competitiveness funny if only because they're invariably ironic, and I will be dismissive in those cases, and particularly in the face of unprovoked rudeness. That said, I quite understand that I might be irksome to those sorts of type - c'est la vie. Not sure what the issue is about golf but we've just had another lovely round in a gentle breeze, hitting pars, so I strongly recommend it!

I'm not sure what it is that I don't agree with you now, re. placements. I take it you mean placements during the clinical years?

One thing which strikes me as interesting is that you refer to a rejection from Bristol possibly being linked to lack of community work/ work experience and then go on to say that your DD has noticed a drop in numbers. Whereas the much reviled Oxford, with its apparent lack of focus on the same, retains almost 100%. So perhaps the strong emphasis of Bristol is missing a trick (of course there are a lot of other possible causal links for the difference in drop out figures, so this may be a leap).

[goodbyestranger]

Also my own GP surgery at home has a preponderance of Oxbridge based GPs (one Cambridge then Oxford for the clinical years, one Cambridge then London, one Cambridge then Cambridge) whose peers seem to have not dropped out (their DC went to school - inevitably! - with my own DC). And I know plenty of consultants who trained at Oxford or Cambridge. So my social experience is at odds with your own. I'd find the continuation rates for the various schools - from Y1 and through to and beyond F2 - really interesting. I don't know if the information exists, and I wouldn't know where to find it myself. My hunch is that the results wouldn't show that the work experience preference med schools have a significantly higher retention rate than the others - in which case, what's the point? (again - caveat that this is purely speculative).

[goodbyestranger]

Or rather, seem not to have dropped out etc.

[Oxfordmedic]

I would never want to dissuade young people from entering medicine It is one of the few jobs that offers such a plurality of career pathways, clinical, academic, managerial and even commercial. However there are some considerations and a reality check before starting age 18.

Volunteering or being a career for a family member or a job can provide a taster of whether a prospective student actually likes being with and caring for people and can appreciate some of the difficulties, realities and grittiness of it. It also shows whether you can work as a team member, seek advice appropriately and all the usual.
Howeve volunteering etc will not usually prepare you for the other aspect of clinical practice. Doctors have to cope with being able to rapidly process large amounts of information and demands coming from all directions and make often instantaneous decisions in very stressful, tiring situations. Those decisions cannot be wrong most of the time because of the implications of what happens when they are. It takes a certain type of person not only to survive that but to maintain calmness and continuing career satisfaction despite the pressures. It obviously helps if you are somebody who thrives under pressure and are a rapid processor (academic as well as practically) with a good memory. So academic selection criteria for medicine allows filtering for that, including the more stringent academic criteria for Oxbridge entrance.

I think the case referred to in the articles below should be compulsory reading for anybody who is thinking about medicine.

www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2018/mar/16/gmc-hadiza-bawa-garba-respect-doctors

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/wish-brave-dr-bawa-garba-need-nhs-change-culture-blame/ (I read it in a spare paper at hospital but although I notice that it is behind a paywall it can be read for free by registering)

[swingofthings]

Totally agree Oxfordmedic around the natural ability to process information etc.. I also agree that volunteering one hour a week, playing with elderly people is unlikely to help with those skills, but I can see that these skills are now being used by DD in her work as a care worker now that she is given responsibilities.

Recently, she had to take a patient with severe dementia to a hospital appointment on her own. I won't go into detail for privacy reasons, but an incident happen and she had to use her quick thinking, non panic mode and leadership skills to make a decision as to what to do. What came out of it is that all this came totally naturally to her, she did make the correct decisions, and more importantly, the whole think didn't phase her and she actually got a buzz from the situation rather than anxiety.

Of course you have to get to that stage of work experience when you are given responsibilities, so that's unlikely to be the first year of experience. DD started 16 months ago.

I do think it is possible to have these skills and abilities and yet not being able to smash the UKCAT, but I understand that there has to be an easy test for the purpose of selection, but I do think work experience will help with interviews to evidence verbally the same skills and abilities especially with UKCAT/BMAT results are on the lower side (but enough for interview).

[Oxfordmedic]

Swingofthings your DD sounds exceptional in the experience she has sought and accumulated. Very impressive to have such an attitude.
BTW I am not saying the UKCAT or BMAT with interviews pick all the right people, just stating that volunteering in most cases does not suffice for students to know their capabilities in these 'overload' situations they will face (and whether they can maintain calm, cheerfulness and reliability for others). Plus realise that despite all their best efforts they may end up as in this case.

[peteneras]

"I think the case referred to in the articles below should be compulsory reading for anybody who is thinking about medicine."

Why is that so, Oxfordmedic?

And what's your take about this seemingly double standard that you seem to have failed to recommend as compulsory reading?

[peteneras]

Agree with you Needmoresleep that Alreadytaken is genuinely one of the star posters on these medical threads (together with one or two others) whose threads are always unassuming but inevitability interesting. Quite unlike some smug posters who appear on MN through the years under different guises telling us everything under the sun is a breeze and a casual walk in the park with no sweat at all. In other words, you lot out there, look at me and my family - how great and clever we are - you idiots!

"I have however felt unable to contribute experience, in part because 2018 thread has taken on a rather smug and unwelcoming tone."

Yes, I remember making one solitary post (or was it a couple of posts?) on that long 2018 thread saying folks in there have made that thread into a private playground. . .

[Oxfordmedic]

Why is that so, Oxfordmedic?
It illustrates very well the Swiss cheese error model and what can happen to even very competent doctors.
Most medics have the humility to recognise "there but for the grace of God". Would be doctors need to have self awareness of their relative. weaknesses as well as strengths particularly when they will be working within the over stretched NHS environment .

Not sure what you mean from the other article. It may be selectively reported but seems a case of mismanagement although again illustrating problems from NHS systems.

[peteneras]

OK, I see what you mean about the Swiss cheese error phenomenon and the legendary NHS under funding. But I think it's widely accepted that everyone makes mistakes and nobody is perfect (just ask the superstar, J Christ) and I thought your recommended compulsory reading for potential medics on the Hadiza Bawa-Garba case is about the Owellian heavy-handed approach by the doctors' regulatory body, the GMC, handed out to the unfortunate doctor which caused widespread discomfort among many doctors in the profession. But I see a double standard in a similar case reported earlier this year re doctor's error in handling, or not handling as in this case of an even younger sick child which resulted in the death of the child and this question about the GMC's 'Fitness to Practise'.

[goodbyestranger]

peteneras some people on these threads don't see the process as so massively insurmountable as others. There's a good deal of merit in unmystifying a process and it's a recurrent but disturbing theme on MN that the 11+ is complicated and required military planning, that entrance to Eton and Winchester etc is complicated and need military planning, the same for Oxbridge entrance and med school etc. For plenty of people without access to funds for whole school tutoring and not at big name preps or extraordinarily expensive and supportive schools such as the above named and St Pauls and Westminster etc and without experience of the Oxbridge or med school process and without the sorts of connections that so many MNers seem to have to facilitate placements etc, knowing that some DC get places without all the hocus pocus is actually useful. If it was even remotely about boasting I'd have bored myself into a premature grave by now. I'm well aware my own DC are bright and full of character and I assume that's in some part due to me; I certainly don't need any external affirmation. It's not those who claim these processes are uber difficult by way of giving a puff to their own DC who concern me, it's those who misguidedly believe them.

[goodbyestranger]

Still curious to know whether the med schools with a preference for community work and volunteering eg Bristol/ Cardiff have a markedly lower rate of retention spanning the years from first year uni to the one after F2 than those not making those things critical. I would expect peteneras, Needmoresleep and alreadytaken to have an idea about this, since they often link to med school statistics.

[goodbyestranger]

Aargh - I meant markedly higher rate of retention....

[goodbyestranger]

Well I think I've answered my own question.

"I think prolonged and varied work experience is useful for potential medics because it gives them a better idea about whether it's the career for them or not. A week here or there may be ok for the application but it's not really enough to get a proper idea of what the job is really like". (Wonky)

"Medical schools will not want to use the same selection criteria, as then they would all be picking the same students. They will also want to select those students that are right for their courses.

The NHS will be concerned that those selected know what they are letting themselves in for, and will want to remain within the NHS long-term.

Given Stranger's DS is clearly very bright, my guess would be that the one offer he did not get, was from a medical school that was looking for a different ratio of practical experience to academic". (Needmoresleep)

"However volunteering etc will not usually prepare you for the other aspect of clinical practice. Doctors have to cope with being able to rapidly process large amounts of information and demands coming from all directions and make often instantaneous decisions in very stressful, tiring situations. Those decisions cannot be wrong most of the time because of the implications of what happens when they are. It takes a certain type of person not only to survive that but to maintain calmness and continuing career satisfaction despite the pressures. It obviously helps if you are somebody who thrives under pressure and are a rapid processor (academic as well as practically) with a good memory". (Oxfordmedic)

"DD says that judging from the shrinking size of tutor groups, there were a number of drop outs during the first year of her course". (Needmoresleep, re. Bristol).

All of the above are extracted from the thread, offering alternative takes, but dipping in and out of various pieces of info freely available on the internet - and some retention rates seeming to be completely appalling - it's pretty clear that the ratio of academic to practical has a direct bearing on the retention rates, even though this info gathering is done at a very amateur level. A slight concern given the opening up of medical school places and the debate about falling standards....

So OP, I think perhaps the thing to focus on is your DS's aptitude for medicine, not how often he needs to show up at a care home or how many days he needs to shadow at a hospital. Aptitude goes to essential qualities and not to attributes.

[Oxfordmedic]

Goodbyestranger I don't have access to attrition rates post graduation by medical school. Like you possibly I did a casual internet search but this data is not easily apparent.
Trainees may leave the NHS for the best of personal reasons, including some of the very bright colleagues I know who have decided on a career path of laboratory research or gone to the States for a few years or entered into commercial biotech research or pharmaceutical companies. Obviously when a student starts training they cannot be expected to know what they are best suited for or what personal circumstances may change their initial ambitions. That is fine and has always been thus.

I agree with you that the process should not be made to seem an art form which requires a lot of inside knowledge and complex negotiation. Vet applicants are already well used to approaching entrance as a two year project. I think a similar approach hasn't major advantages for medicine. Get the best grades possible for GCSEs, explore personal fitness for the profession by whatever is possible experience -wise , prepare for BMAT and / or UKCAT and work towards the best grades for A levels, particularly for chemistry.
If no offers first time but the right grades and still very keen on the profession then try again using the past year's experience of the tests and interviews from the first time.
For those who are disadvantaged during school education or decide on doing medicine later there are other entry routes.
The below link at the least gives an overview of the different medical schools and baseline requirements.
www.medschools.ac.uk/media/2357/msc-entry-requirements-for-uk-medical-schools.pdf

It must help when MN posters share their DCs' experience or their own professional experience but nobody should feel inadequate if they or their DCs can't replicate all the various permutations and combinations to gain entry mentioned on MN medicine threads. Or they try and decide to change direction along the way.

[Oxfordmedic]

meant A similar approach has major advantages

[goodbyestranger]

Oxfordmedic I couldn't find post graduation figures only a sample of individual medical school progression rates which I would assume are presented to look as least bad as possible - I'm wary of published statistics. But in spite of that reservation it's clear that certain medical schools have issues with progression and retention, which Needmoresleep touched on anecdotally. When one compares the reputation of certain schools for long term volunteering and community work it does beg the question of how this pans out in terms of long term suitability for the job. Which is why I asked it. Any other interested poster can do the same search. I think naming names would only cause a tidal wave of trouble.

I can't help thinking that there's really no correlation between long term volunteering or lots of medical placements and the qualities you referred to in your earlier post about the ability to process medical situations swiftly and accurately under pressure. To that extent grades plus interview must surely throw up more evidence than volunteering - perhaps not in terms of how 'caring' etc a young person is, but certainly in terms of how likely they are to prosper in the job so as to be worth the investment.

[peteneras]

". . . I thought your recommended compulsory reading for potential medics on the Hadiza Bawa-Garba case is about the Owellian heavy-handed approach by the doctors' regulatory body, the GMC, handed out to the unfortunate doctor which caused widespread discomfort among many doctors in the profession."

Finally, a victory for common sense which somehow makes the GMC look a bit foolish!