Unconditional offers

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Is the expansion of unconditional offers distorting not just entry to higher education but also A level results themselves?

Fully admit this thought is totally based on a limited amount of anecdata.

In DD2's year 13 large numbers of students have been offered and accepted unconditional offers on a range of uni courses. As a result according to DD2 these students all 'took the foot off the gas' in terms of studies and then revision/preparation for exams. Less attentiveness to studies, less commitment to revision, willingness to go to parties in the run up to exams.

These are students DD2 has known all through school so has a good understanding of their attitudes to learning before the uni application process started.

As a result of the reduced intensity of study, these students are likely to perform less well at A level than they would have otherwise done.

If this picture were repeated across the country will this potentially impact on grade boundaries?

While this may be good for individual students is it bad for education as a whole?

Just musing on a Sunday morning but would be interested if other people had a view.

Thanks abilockhart.and xenia for your replies. Dd was is in a pickle.
She has 2 unconditional offers to do masters one near home not a great uni cheap costing masters course compared to the one down London . The London one is expensive for masters is £10,200 aprox which she can get loans just about covers it but is very high ranking overall and for its research and overall more reputable let's say than near home. I've told her to forget the cost of going to London we will support her. She is going try and get a little job. If she goes down there. We both never went to uni so would ideally like dd to go to the one that will present itself with the best opportunities and outlook career wise. Hence all the questions. There's just not that many info about how worth it it is to do a masters.

Just to add my thoughts on contextual offers. My dd went to university that kinda gets mentioned here a lot. A couple of her mates held contextual offers and did amazing, getting a first. Which only 16 out of 150 student's achieved on her course. They achieved higher than the contextual offer given. They came from really bad sink schools but really excelled, really made up for them and the university for picking them up and getting the best of them. Both ended up getting highly paid graduate jobs.

fruitpot, be warned some masters programmes can be very full-on, especially if they are only a year. Add in job or other applications (which can be really time consuming) and it may not be sensible to count on a job. That said, lots of opportunities in London. Casual waitressing for events in the run up to Christmas is a popular option for students. Or tutoring.

needmoresleep thank you very much for your post. I have just noticed it . Dd also wants to go into research work in academia. Honestly we are both of really no help to her as haven't got a clue in this field. My own inkling says to her go to London if not for the experience.
She says she will need to get a studentship of some kind to do a PhD eventually and research assistant type jobs in the meantime. She has previously warned me that it's going to be a rocky career path ahead. The cost mentally and financially may be huge in terms that she may not have a permanent job for some time.
Can I ask if you if your DS found his masters in London worthwhile, no regrets would he have done things different? Or because of the research route, is to go to the best he can get himself into. To build up his profile.

I would go for the London masters then (assuming it is a good London place like Imperial, UCL etc, not say London Met.) particularly if as someone says above that might help get jobs abroad in future in that field. Do be sure about the career first. Some people do a masters because they cannot think what else to do and want to put off a career choice. I think if you know what your career plan is, however, and a masters needs to part of it (eg careers in academia at universities etc) then go for it.

xenia thanks you, yes you have mentioned the uni she wants to go to. But it isn't London Met. I think part of dd is worried about the finance more than anything. And trying to find a cheaper route for our sakes. But I really don't want her to take the long route round and she ends up missing out on so many opportunities because of where she went and she didn't get to connect with people in her line of field. Yeah I think the London route is best. I'm going to encourage her to take London masters. It's my gut instinct. I really don't want her to compromise.

Yes, if she wants to try and get into academia (not at all easy these days to get a decent job in it, as too many permanent roles get changed to short term contracts when older permanent staff retire) then the quality of the department's research is important, and UCL and Imperial are top notch for a lot of things. Also important to get a dissertation supervisor who's supportive and well regarded in the field.

Penny Thank you for the advice and the tips. It is very helpful. She just been told that her dissertation after some alterations will be submitted for peer review or something along the lines that it might get published which she says is a big thing for her and career but on the outiside world not really a big thing. Well it sounds very good and promising by the sounds of it. She says the London masters course is taught and will really help her get more insight and expertise in her field which she thinks she has a lot of gaps in. The local uni course is a MRES degree. She has a week or so to make her decision. I just hope she goes to london and don't feel guilty on the cost to us. I know what she's like. Because we just had to help older dd on deposit on a house she thinks we won't be able to manage.

Fruitpot, others will know a lot more than me. And DS' Master's choice was made easier because he was already in London, as are we. He did most of his own research and made his own decisions. However I am grateful for one poster who helped me understand why it was sensible for him to turn down Oxford in favour of London. He has just completed this Masters and is heading to the US where he has funding for a PhD.

So some, random thoughts, based on what he told me or I observed and I am happy to be corrected where I am wrong.

1. Science, social science and humanities are different. As I understand it, science PhD money is usually linked to specific research funding. Humanities funding can be difficult to obtain. Social science funding is easier, especially in DS' area where there is usually plenty of UG teaching/research assistantship money around. (In fact DS was offered both teaching and RA work straight after UG.) You do not do a PhD without funding, though this funding can vary......and seems to be negotiable.

1. A good one years Masters is really hard work. There was a joke at DS' University that Masters students were seen at registration, and at exams but not in between as they were hidden in the library. DS probably put in a solid 10 hour day seven days a week for 10 months. (It sounds grim but the same is probably also true of other one year post grad courses like law conversion - and there was a really nice group comraderie on his course.)

1. Not all Masters are equal, and University name is not always a good indicator. For example Cambridge say "The MPhil in Economics is designed for students who wish to obtain a one-year master’s qualification before leaving academic economics, and is not designed for students who wish to continue to the PhD programme." I think it is worth asking who else will be on the course, where previous graduates have ended up, and lining these up with your own aspirations and experience. DS' course was fabulously international with about 50% perhaps going on to the US for PhDs, but this is would have been unusual. It also helped that his University perhaps had more PGs than UGs, so was geared up for them.

1. Examine the course options, who will be teaching, how large is the course. Being taught by someone whose interests you share and whose name on references carries weight, is very valuable.

1. Plan the next move. It is quite hard to start applying for PhDs when you have only just started your Masters. DS had a huge advantage in staying at the same place and so having references on hand, but there were lots of other distractions like GMAT and the applications themselves. My understanding is that it is common to apply to quite a lot of places, which is then distracting/time consuming. DS applied for relatively few by skipping the aspirational and the fall-backs. Fall backs were instead suitable employers or Research Assistantship work, and an application later. Post Masters Gap years are common. If a career in research is your aim the Distinction in the Masters is the priority. Good academic references are really important, so you either really engage from day one, or accept that you may get fuller references by taking a gap year.

1. Dont underestimate the adjustment. At DS' graduation one of his peers was telling me that coming from University in a smaller European country had meant that the first term was really bad. Things started to get better in the second and by the third she earned a distinction. But she had had to work really hard, fill gaps and get used to a different cultural approach. It then becomes difficult to be applying for PhDs at a point when you may still be struggling with the step up to Masters.

1. Assuming the course is a good one and a proven stepping stone for what she wants to do next - and whatever plan Bs she might have., I would really recommend spending time in London. Hard to describe, but London just tends to be more focussed, and that is a worthwhile life experience. If the course is internally recognised it is really valuable to study with people from different backgrounds and perspectives, and academic interest is a great common denominator.

1. Accomodaton. She should start researching places like spareroom.com and then use every contact you have who might know someone who wants to rent out a room. It need not be too expensive, students will be scattered so social/academic life happens on campus, and you may prefer to live with working people rather than UGs. If you can live nearby transport is efficient and need not cost too much. Also make contact with tutor agencies to see if there might be some well-paid ad hoc work available. I would treat the year like a job, as well as an investment (of time as well as money). Right place and it would be a really worthwhile one.

Think that was about all. And based on one experience only.

.

needmoresleep Thank you so much for the detailed experience and process your DS has gone through in order to get to where he is today. Keeping on top of things and forward planning really understanding where the opputunities are in the area your in seems. I'm so made up for you and your ds that it has turned out very well so far. He sounds so dedicated! His hard work is paying off.
What strikes me most from your post is that a career in research/academia is not at all straight forward!

I don't know if it's good or bad but her master course is very niche in the "sciences" there's 4 strands of specialisation on her specialisation there's only 11 student's. But theres around 40 for the whole area. Maybe it's unpopular not many apply or its niche area. But dd says they are tops for her area. The uni she went to also recommend them as they areexperts in that he field.
The course specifics says it is aimed for students who want go onto PhD and research. The destination of leavers indicates they are successful in this area. But if she ends up not getting any further from this Masters and up on the normal job market. I do worry that the niche area she studied is not going to be relevant or employers will frown upon it. So ends up being a waste. But I'm trying not to think on that.
We've started to plan and look at accommodation, tube cost. To atleast get a sense of how much we need to be budgeting per week. Do you think about £300 per week is realistic? accommodation, food and travel? If worse case dd is unable to get a job because of work load.
Thanks again for your in depth post. Im alot more mentally prepared and have some understanding the route to getting into academia. Well I hope they get a lot of job satisfaction when they finally get there.

Sorry I'm so not articulate with my writing. My brain and typing aren't synching right today.

I can't add to the useful post by needmores. Just to say as someone who also lives in outer London I think £300 a week should be realistic as she will probably rent a room in a share house (I assume London university halls don't have space for post grads or may be they do - at Bristol my sons have a live in post grads who I think get subsidised accommodation for doing stuff like answering the phone or bell if a student is locked out at night etc). I endorse what is said about planning for the stage after too.

My daughter was saying this week one reason she seems to be doing fairly well is she has pressed on - no gap years, each stage of her career following the one before rather than 1 year doing not much abroad, a year at home, a year deciding what to do which soon mounts up.

Xenia, I dont think academia is linear in the same way. So if DS had decided not to try and juggle his Masters with PhD applications he would then have spent a year essentially working as a research assistant and doing some UG teaching. Not hanging out on a beach. Wider experience seems to help. And it ended up as a 'bird in the hand' decision and he would have been a stronger applicant with Masters grades in hand.

London Universities do provide postgrad accomodation. Not surprising as in some places PGs outnumber UGs. (There is a very diiferent feel to University in London, which could well suit someone with a strong academic focus and ambition) However finding a room in a shared house is likely to be cheaper/nicer. DS managed to find somewhere within 10 minutes walk from his colllege and certainly spent less than £300pw in total.

Xenia your DD can have no way of knowing.

I can't really see a difference between the career trajectories of my DC, where some have had a year between degrees or professional training courses and some haven't. The DS who graduated last year has had a full year of what you and Needmoresleep would characterize as hanging out on a beach (very literally - in the West Indies, then Australia and now here at home) and hasn't been in any way short of offers from Magic Circle firms of banks. But then he does have an Oxford first, which allows a bit more flexibility for time off. His brother who took Finals this year is also currently hanging out on a beach but he also got a first and I'm all for them taking time off. I think some of the older ones, in retrospect, could have done with a decent relaxed year out. But they can always do that when the time suits. Life needs to be about more than work. Work hard and play hard really has a lot to commend it and in my experience the very top employers encourage their employees to take time off too. Work ethics don't all come in the same form.

So that should read Magic Circle firms or banks.

That's true and it only tends to be city law type careers with set pay rises in the early year where there is that kind of fixed year 1 pay, year 2 pay etc. and as you imply it is not a race anyway. It was just she was chatting about the issue as she sees quite a few (not Oxford firsts) who are older and haven't got the number of years of career experience, not bought a property etc I was also very focussed on getting the goals ticked off marriage, babies, house, career in a way that is not that normal for most people. We are all different.

With the uni fees plus accommodation, food, travel. You are looking at the same rate as private school day fees. So many of sons friends have decided to go to local colleges to learn a trade, follow in parents foot steps it is no wonder numbers are down. DC2 did a Masters because he found a grant that would pay for it. DC1 did a year in industry so a four year course. DC3 is lower sixth so now looking for a course, he wants to do architecture which is seven years excluding a year in industry, my heart is sinking at the thought of how much this is going to cost us.

Dd has done the deed she has firmed the London university to do her masters. She graduated this week. The university does have post graduate accommodation about £200 mark for cheapest. Spare room is brilliant place for accommodation but may have to wait a bit to get those starting in mid September contracts come through.
Feel loads better to started the ball rolling now. We figured that yes is going to cost us maybe £15k+ this year we not loaded. But see it as a investment for her future. Hopefully the experience will get her somewhere.
welshmist if I had known what I know now. I wish I had set up a fund for her education .

That's good. It sounds like the right place for someone who's working at the level she is. I hope it's a great course for her and she can find a reasonably priced room.

@FruitPot

I don't know if it's good or bad but her master course is very niche in the "sciences" there's 4 strands of specialisation on her specialisation there's only 11 student's. But theres around 40 for the whole area... The course specifics says it is aimed for students who want go onto PhD and research. The destination of leavers indicates they are successful in this area. But if she ends up not getting any further from this Masters and up on the normal job market. I do worry that the niche area she studied is not going to be relevant or employers will frown upon it. So ends up being a waste. But I'm trying not to think on that.

It doesn't seem likely that employers will "frown on" a masters that didn't lead on to a PhD. They will be more interested in what skills she developed while doing it. Any postgraduate study is likely to be pretty niche, but that doesn't mean people who have done it don't have any attributes that are marketable outside that niche. The biggest risk of PhDs is that they are - by definition - spectacularly narrow: many people who have just completed a PhD will know almost everything about almost nothing. It's important to keep sight of the bigger picture that your research fits into and to recognize what generic - rather than specialist - skills it uses.

FWIW I did a PhD in immunopharmacology many, many years ago, and am now an academic (and have supervised a couple of PhD students, and examined several more). My nephew recently finished a masters/PhD in biochemistry, and is now in a non-academic career closely related to that field. Is this the kind of science area your daughter is in, or is it more of a physical- or earth-sciences area?

Skiiltan is right. The advice on really focussing on the Masters, getting as good grade as you can and making as many contacts as you can, even if it means deferring PhD applicaitons to the following year came from a friend whose son did a chemistry Masters. It is a very intensive year.

In her son's case he discovered during that year that he did not want to follow on with a niche PhD. Mainly because he had had enough of being a student. But also apparently because in his field you took your PhD in areas which had current funded research projects, and none that were open to him really appealed.

Its fine. Having a good science Masters from a well-regarded RG University did him no harm and he gained a place on a training scheme with one of the big accountancy firms, despite strong competition. Modern careers are not often linear, and there is no reason why he should not then use his schience background in a future management role. The important thing is to engage fully and get the most from each stage.

And well done! Before she goes she should research public talks etc available at the relevent Royal Institutes as well as other London campuses. London is a world city and all sorts of people float through. Plus be aware of sites like this centraltickets.co.uk/. London is expensive but it is also a lot that you can do cheaply.

Thanks penny
skiitan without outing poor dd, she'd kill me, her undergrad is in neuroscience, her Msc involves a bit of it and maths but her area is very cross disciplinary with other subjects the specialism bit is where she thinks at the moment there alot of scope for research and she has a lot of enthusiasm to want to learn more about, its an area where it will probably be helpful in education or people with certain disorders. Sorry I'm so vague.
But I'm glad to hear that having such niche subject area won't be frowned on if later she goes into something not at all related or go into the corporate world. As a mum I'm always thinking on default mode of what happens if plan A goes to pot.

needmore again I can't thank you enough. I learnt so much in the last week. I'm begining to realise how important it is to understand some of the work they do in order to give them the proper support they need. I think part of your DS success has to do with the support and undrstanding he gets from you guys.

Unconditional offers in todays' news (BBC not Daily Mail)

here

Also in the Guardian here and here, and in the Telegraph here.

Sorry, I'm not sure the BBC news site is an awful lot more reliable than the Daily Hate.

I don’t entirely agree with Sir Peter Lampl that moving to an application system post results necessarily helps the disadvantaged. If you still have the results for a less good university, you will still choose that. Conditional or unconditional. If he thinks that the disadvantaged would get higher grades by not being given unconditionals in advance, that might be possible but stats show that these pupils regularly underachieve so much more would need to change, eg quality teaching, advice, parental support etc.

I’m not sure they would shop around after results. Students have mostly got a pretty good idea of where they want to go. Stats show it’s this group who struggle most to get into the best universities so I’m not sure waiting helps. Who will advise them to aim high when all their mates are going down the road to the local uni? It will take more than a post results system to change this. I do wonder how the admin would work in the universities too in such a short timescale?

Otherwise there is quite a lot of agreement that unconditionals are good for mature students and portfolio or audition accessed degrees, but should be used sparingly elsewhere. That seems a reasonable conclusion and it’s possibly suggesting that our university and HE sector needs an overhaul so there are fewer degrees and more HND/HNC type qualifications of days gone by where it’s a stepping stone to a degree but stands as a qualification in its own right. There seems to be a worry that the bums on seats model is not working for the good of the country or many degree holders.

Working and studying definitely needs to be expanded but many firms don’t put enough effort into that preferring ready made applicants.

Here's the UCAS report referred to in the various press reports www.ucas.com/file/178626/download?token=RAF1To81

What would of course be really interesting is a breakdown by institution. I somehow doubt that the 7% figure is reflective of every university. I'd imagine a fair few are more like 0.7% and at the other end........17% / 27% / higher???? Perhaps this is something that the new Office for Students will start publishing once the 2018 cycle ends and all the UCAS analysis is complete.

I'm a bit about having actual grades. I think someone up thread may have alluded that its all about getting predicted grades that effectively, for all bar a few highly selective universities / courses, will pretty much guarantee an offer of a place, and then quite possibly leave a bit of wriggle room if actual results fall slightly short. Again data on how many applicants who fell short of their offer still got accepted by their firm choice university would be interesting. Have to admit to a personal interest here as DS2 will be applying in the next cycle with actual results, and I just wonder whether someone with for example say an AAA prediction (which may or may not be achieved) would be more likely to get an offer than someone with an AAB actual - assuming the "typical" offer is AAA

In some respects a complete post results application system sounds great, however the logistics and practical implications are hardly trivial. Equally I'm not exactly sure what critical problem a post results system would actually be looking to solve.