Who would do well at Oxbridge?

[glitterbiscuits]

My DS got good grades at GCSE, all A/A*/8/9 bar chemistry B
He is predicted straight As at A level.

He is at a good state school and was selected to go on an Oxbridge application trip to encourage state pupils to apply. He went but it now doesn't want to apply.
I suspect it's a bit reverse snobbery here. I'd say we were averagely middle class ( not a term I'd use but trying to give a picture) and it's not as if he working class chip on his shoulder.He thinks it's full of "posh" people.
Or it may be that he doesn't want to 'waste' a space on his application.
However he is looking at Russel Group Unis so I know he likes the idea of a bit of 'status'
(Possibly wrong word choice again!).
I think he would have at least a chance of a place.

Am I a bit deluded?

"For DS not worrying about everyone elses performance, just his own, is a factor."

I think this is a key factor. I suspect that many students who have worked their socks off to achieve 3 As are worries about being with students who achieved 3 A*s without much effort and will have to work so much harder to keep up. They will be with other students who have also been hand picked and probably suffer from imposter syndrome to a certain extent.

I went to Oxford from a state school. It was a bit daunting as there were a lot of people from elite private schools who wanted to know which school you went to and a few aristos. However I wasn't friends with the snobbish ones and made some wonderful friends who went to a range of different types of schools and couldn't care less about that sort of thing.

Wouldn't change it- style, intensity and quality of education is completely different to my friends who went to other universities.

I wouldn't have applied if others hadn't given me a lot of encouragement as I doubted myself even though I easily had the grades. You do need the confidence to get through the rocky first few weeks at uni- lots of socialising of course but also can be a bit intimidating.

Does your son thrive under pressure? You have to like working in intense bouts and then resting rather than at a steady pace year round I would say.

He actually works best under pressure!

I had a chat to him over dinner. We had pizza and chips, so nothing posh
He's still not keen. I think the outreach visit actually did more harm than good. He thinks it's all a bit daunting
I've Googled the private v state stats for other Uni he's tempted by and looking at places like Durham, Bristol there isn't much in it.
So it's an Oxbridge image problem in his head.
If I could get those grades with the work he puts in ( some but he's not over stretched by any means) I'd love the opportunity.

If I'm honest, I think it is more the perception that you have to be extremely bright and it's really hard work that puts people off. My Dd did UNIQ and loved her week there, all paid for but decided she definitely wanted to do dentistry so couldn't go. Of the Oxbridge group at dd2 college I think most aren't going to apply.
I also think most students from public schools don't have a passion for their subject but are well drilled in interview techniques and probably know a few people that are already there.

@RedHelenB "I think it is more the preception that you have to be extremely bright and it's really hard work". Well, yes you do, and yes it is. The is the point of an elite world class university. There are lectures all day, there are tutor meetings in the evenings, you are expected to work hard and do well. But the fees are the same as most other uni's and you are getting really good value for money, especially in the STEM subjects. Oh, and the students, regardless of background, DO have passion and drive, they need it to stay the course, and most students come from private, grammer or state schools not public.

@ScrubTheDecks You comment about Latin at dinner, and there again, is a misconception which puts some groups off applying to Oxford. Yes, once in a while at certain formal dinners, at certain colleges, with three courses and wine, there will be a Latin grace. You don't have to go, but it is a special occassion put on by your college (and it's free food and wine!), but most days, in hall, for lunch or dinner, it is, indeed a school canteen with bog standard food.

Gford: pretty standard at Christ Church for the 7pm normal dinner.

It’s a small point but part of the daunting image.

Industry go out and recruit. They find the individuals that will fit. The Universities trying to up their diversity, racial and economic, develop initiatives that they think address a broad group, and hope the individuals within that group will answer their call. They look at whole postcodes, or boroughs. This is mad in London and further benefits the people living in £1m+ houses which are across the road from social housing.

Get him back there a few times. Or try Cambridge. They are full of brayingly ocnfident young men, it's true. But that won't ever change if state school pupils don't apply. State school numbers are rising, and he'd probably find there are loads of people like him, they just aren't hooraying down the High in white tie. (I went to Oxford from a state school. I was so utterly clueless, I didn't even pick up on all the social differences and put downs until my second year. But I did have a great time and certainly don't regret it. It has given me a bedrock of confidence which I'd not have otherwise because I have very very low self confidence and self belief generally, but I can't deny I got in without any help from my school and i managed to get a 2.1. Your son would be seriously proud of himself if he did this.

Was his visit via The Brilliant Club? They do summer schools too. Maybe an extended stay would help him feel he belongs, es[pecially if he was mixing with other state school pupils who are equally fit for Oxbridge. Together they will build confidence in themselves and each other. I've seen some of their summer school pupils, punting down the Isis, looking so happy. And it was lovely to hear Geordie, Cockney and Liverpuddlian voices shrieking with happiness and loudly discussing their ideas with each other as they punted along. That needs to become commonplace.

@ScrubThe Decks
My Dc have black students in their class who are flying in maths. Really extraordinary. I think instead of sitting back pontificating and justifying themselves on 'standards' and saying the fault is with the students who don;t apply, and with their parents who don't make them, have no ambition, blah blah, they should start a scheme that actively head hunts. Stop waiting for students to approach your closed-looking door - go out and find them. Head hunt. Ask schools to nominate high flying students and then write to them, individually. Say "we hear you are doing really well, we would like to have students like you, so please apply" instead of just encouraging teachers to nudge them into the melee alongside the public school kids who waltz in because they have been encouraged to think it is their birthright.

This is a truly brilliant idea. Who can we galvanise for this to happen?

And stop all the bloody grace in Latin at what is essentially a school dinner. How non-inclusive is that? Grace. In Latin. I really don't agree with this. Latin historically was a universal language of communication so that people from any country could converse. It's not inherently elitist, and it's a superb foundation for teaching etymology, spelling, grammar, organised thought. Instead, why not campaign for state schools to run Latin classes, and at very least to just teach pupils the Latin graces so they know what they mean and aren;t daunted. The idea that one should be scared off by the unfamiliar is really counterproductive. Just demystify it. Anyone capable of understanding a Harry Potter spell can understand a Latin grace. They take about 30 seconds to perform.

OK, OK, I veered into the Latin Grace stuff as part of a rant. But honestly a Christian prayer... it is a small part of the trappings that can make Oxbridge look less inclusive and welcoming.

But thank you for supporting my head hunting proposal.

It would be so much more modern and much less paternalistic, and give the Universities a better chance of harvesting the best thinkers and introducing more perspectives to sharpen everyone’s thinking.

They actually do try with head-hunting, or things like it. I had some v lefty friends a few years ago who got v involved in the outreach programmes in their college (which based on stats was I think the most inclusive): they weren't privately educated and were really committed to increasing diversification. Unfortunately, there just isn't the take up as the image of poshness and otherness is so strong.

Interestingly, being there as a grad student, the whiteness and poshness is v much only a thing among British students- among those of us who came from other countries, at graduate level at least v few seemed to come from families with lots of money: it was much more children-of-teachers type thing, and much more ethnically diverse.

Another vote here for scrub's headhunting idea and not just for non-white non-MC students, why not actively recruit for the lesser-known subjects? The ones that kids in state schools didn't know they could a degree in at Oxbridge. Also agree about making Latin more accessible to state school students. Also, do Oxford colleges offer a 'crash course' for prospective students so they can learn this kind of stuff? It would be worthwhile setting up in an online "Oxford for dummies" for people making their applications - include stuff about British culture too for the overseas students.

So many misconceptions on here - they just continue to put potential students off. DS - 2 formals in 3 years and never worn a gown. Won’t until graduation next year. The “trappings” aren’t compulsory and aren’t everywhere - lots of college options. Focus on the positives instead - the academic opportunities and yes of course they have to be bright. Agree with the opp above who said lets help to demystify. Glitterbiscuits feel free to PM if you’d like to know more about Cambridge - of course can only share my perceptions as a mum.

Maybe it's worth contacting The Brilliant Club which actively intervenes from primary school age upwards to ensure bright children from deprived backgrounds consider Oxbridge. Their stats show that the earlier they intervene, the more likely the pupil is to consider Oxbridge. I.e. if they do only one summer school/Brilliant Club intervention, the ones who do it in yr 5/6 are more likely to apply than those who do it post GCSE. So the earlier you capture pupils and offer them the notion that it's for them, the less likely they are to reject it as other.

Glitterbiscuits just to say my child went to a similar Oxford Outreach programme and reacted in exactly the same way.

I was surprised too as the child in question is very academic.

Gut feeling is an important indicator if you are going to be in a place for 3 years, so I understand that I will need to consider the child's position when the time comes.

DD went to an Oxbridge convention in Liverpool last year with a handful of other hand picked students, and came away initially saying that she wanted to do biomed at Oxford. She said the Cambridge presenters came across as stuck up, and "why northern oicks shouldn't apply to Cambridge".

DD changed her mind because she knew she wasn't "Oxford shaped".

My friend's DD went to the same convention this year and really doesn't want to apply either. She is very bright and works hard, but really doesn't want the pressure that she would be under at the Oxbridge universities.

Ask schools to nominate high flying students and then write to them, individually. Say "we hear you are doing really well, we would like to have students like you, so please apply

Although I can't talk for the admissions and outreach teams of the colleges there are several problems with this approach.
First are you suggesting that colleges divide up geographical areas between them? If so that would be restrictive for students applying.
Secondly it would put off the very bright students who are not teacher pleasers and therefore did not get nominated.

Thirdly it could produce false expectations and would not be an encouragement for younger pupils at a school if a teacher selected pupil failed to be admitted.
Fourthly the schools with pupils least likely to apply often have teachers who also have misconceptions and therefore are unlikely to nominate pupils.
Much better to continue what is already happening, outreach through residential courses and subject open days as tasters. These should be more widely advertised by the schools as well as targeted to the correct demographic.

State school educated, ex Oxford. Tell him to look at the ‘newer’ colleges (ex women’s, and 20th century). They tend to not be stuffed to the gills with public school boys.

My college was fairly diverse economically - I didn’t feel like the poor relation.

Why not both, Send? Some pupils would feel incredibly validated to receive a letter from Oxbridge asking them to apply.

I only applied for one reason. I started going otu with someone way older than me when I was sixteen, who had been to Oxford, told me I was clever, taught me loads about our mutual subject, and encouraged me to apply. No one from school ever suggested it No one from our school had ever been. I'm delighted to say that the following year six people applied and all got in, the year after at keast one got in. The school did nothing at all. My ex boyfirend set the ball rolling inadvertently, and once the school realised their bright pupils were in with a chance, they kept up the momentum.

Haven't read every post but my suggestion is try to get him to have a look at some Cambridge Open Days. My ds1 is there but was very put off by his ideas about poshness and elitism. He is very happy at a modern college which doesn't look or feel like most people's ideas of what Oxbridge looks like. My ds2 is at Oxford - looking at both from the outside as a parent imho Cambridge is way more 'liberal' than Oxford.

Every thread I read on MN about Oxbridge has people saying how much they loved it there. Are there any ex Oxbridge students who didn't enjoy their university days?

LoniceraJaponica - I had mixed views at the time. I adored my first year. I lappe dup all the surface gloss - punting down the Isis, the May Day dawn chorus from Magdalen tower while we sipped bucks fizz, and the Summer Balls. Then in second year I was much more aware of the nuanced put downs that I was poor and from the wrong class and had the wrong accent. I really shrunk inside my skin that year and ended up taking a year out due to depression. I had no intention of going back, and became close friends with a drop out from Cambridge (also Northern from a poorer family) But I was persuaded to return and finish my exams, which I did in quite a detached, focused way. It's only with hindsight, decades later, that I am so deeply appreciative of it, and now I tend to remember the good times in my first year most of all. In my day the ratio of public school to state school was far higher, and the ratio of men to women was three to one, so I was in a real minority. It's more balanced now, and needs ot keep moving in the right direction.

“Much better to continue what is already happening, outreach through residential courses and subject open days as tasters. These should be more widely advertised by the schools as well as targeted to the correct demographic.”

But it’s not working. The stats for BAME / black students to Christ Church (for example) are shameful.

I don’t think head hunting should be a permanent admissions mechanism, just until the demographic has become encouragingly more representative.

OBEs and MBEs are done by peer and community nomination. I know of kids I would like to nominate.

Sets up expectation? What, more than the almost lifelong expectation that some students have enjoyed : endured?

My daughter was encouraged to apply and for a good while she considered it. Then she changed her mind and decided it want what she wanted so hopefully is off to another RG uni soon.
One of her friends had been accepted at Oxbridge and another absolute genius friend applied and wasn’t accepted, I was quite shocked but it all came down to interview apparently.

I imagine the people who didn’t enjoy it did the sensible thing and changed universities before completing their degree. 3+ years is a long time to be doing something you’re not finding particularly satisfactory.