Unconditional offers

[LoniceraJaponica]

I have always been led to believe that unconditional offers were only made to students with high predicted grades and where the university really wants them to go to their particular university.

However, since restrictions on student number have been lifted I am getting the impression that it is the lower ranking universities who are making more unconditional offers (pre A level results). For example, a few of DD’s less academic peers have received unconditional offers, yet none of the A grade students have.

One of them is currently working at Ds, Es and Us. She got Es and Us in the last round of mocks, and I am beginning to wonder whether university is the right place for her. She might be on a course with students who achieved Cs and Ds, so she will have trouble keeping up or she might drop out. Doesn’t this make the idea of going to university rather pointless for some students?

BUT it is something like 8th in the country for her subject.

Says who? I think you're making the assumption that league tables made up to sell newspapers have some kind of official status.

Can you point us in the right direction of a university league table that is meaningful and relevant then Skiiltan?

Given that these tables are published by The Times/Telegraph/The Guardian and not The Sun/Star/Daily Mail, I think people are more likely to believe them.

Is this one the best one to refer to? And why are they all different (apart from Cambridge and Oxford always occupying the top 2 places)?

I know it would require an overhaul of the whole system but I think it would be much better for students to apply to university after they have received their results. It would take a lot of the guesswork out of it and would result in a much fairer process.

Currently most University places are awarded on predicted even though most predicted grades are not correct.

I think the league tables are about as useful as the league tables produced about schools (ie they give a rough idea about how good/bad a uni is but isn't absolutely perfect). I'm relatively happy to trust them for general placings but I wouldn't quibble over 6th and 7th or 23rd and 25th, etc.

Xenia I know that 6 figure salaries are an ambition for a lot of people, but realistically only 2% of the workforce ever get them. So yes, if your dc is likely to be in that 2% then they need to be going to the absolute top uni for their subject, but for the vast majority of people it's just not that important. I know loads of people who are on good salaries ("even teaching" is above average salary after a few years) who studied at average or even lower tier universities. My bil is on about £50k after getting "rubbish" A Level results and then getting a 2:2 from Sunderland, which would be absolutely sneered at by MN.

For my dd, she is already stressed enough by her A Levels that it's a very good thing that the pressure has been taken off by an unconditional offer. She is absolutely still pushing herself to get the best results she can, but her mental health is much steadier without the thought that she could mess up her uni place by "failing" (getting a B) in one of her subjects.

I think as some have suggested there are two types of unconditional offer. Those offered by Unis probably just below the very top tier who want to attract A students and encourage them to put them as first (eg a Birmingham unconditional offer typically requires 6 A at GCSE and a 3A A level prediction) and those offered by 'lower tier' uni's which are more about filling spaces and are not generally conditional on being firm.

I don't think its a problem as long as the student knows why they have been given, knows why they are choosing that Uni and is going there for the right reasons

@zenia @toucanjungle luckily I don't aspire to an "upper middle class" lifestyle. I consider myself to be middle class, I own my own 3 bed house, my car, and my DH and I have a wonderful daughter. I have good friends and although the job can be painful at times, I know I'm making a difference. If you were to ask the teachers on MN why they are still in the job I reckon that would be up there. I've never aspired to be a CEO or anything like that, it's just not my personality. Like PPs have said, it's not always about being in the top 10% or earning 50k plus. You can't buy happiness.

Yes oratory I agree that it's important the student is choosing that uni for the right reasons. My dd had narrowed her choices down to 2 unis, and was edging towards the one that gave the unconditional anyway. Mostly for financial reasons tbh, it's slightly closer to home so traveling will be easier/cheaper, halls are cheaper for first year, rent is cheaper in the other years, the industry links are very good in the final year. So the unconditional offer with a financial bonus for meeting/exceeding the published entrance grades just made sense, as that was where she wanted to go anyway.

Bobbie I'm a teacher too, and am perfectly happy with my lifestyle (although obviously I'd prefer to have more money for less work). Nobody in my family is particularly materialistic, and dd will be quite happy if she can have a similar lifestyle to the one she's grown up with. Happiness is more important than stuff, and that's worth remembering.

UghAgh You mean like we do it is Scotland?

We do 7 years primary (the cut off date is End Feb so youngest starting school will be 4.5 but many Jan and Feb birthdays defer), then up to 6 years in secondary. Nat5s (roughly GCSE level) are sat and the end of S4, the Highers at the end of S5 and DC can apply to start Uni while in S5 and not knowing their grades and therefore that bit is very similar to those having to wait on A levels. However, nowadays most DC apply in S6 already having their Highers that are required, some will still be sitting more or different highers and again may be looking at conditional offers, but a sizeable number will already have their requirements and be doing Advanced Highers or some extra subjects. If they get the correct grades in their AHs and if they are relevant to their course, they can start uni in 2nd year in Scotland where most undergrad degrees are 4 years.

For example, my DS had 5 good higher grades, he was offered 4 unconditional places for 1st year and 2 of the uni's also gave him offers of places in 2nd year conditional on his AH grades.

I don't think any system is perfect though, but at least DS has been able to make a firm decision on his uni in the knowledge he has what they need and the offer is unconditional. He has already decided he doesn't want to start in 2nd year so therefor pressure is off and he knows where he is going in September for definite.

@LoniceraJaponica - Can you point us in the right direction of a university league table that is meaningful and relevant then Skiiltan?

No. There aren't any.

It doesn't make any difference which newspapers are publishing them. A large proportion of the data they are based on is made-up. The spend-per-student and student-staff ratios are calculated in different ways by different universities, the average entry tariff is often incorrect (down to the way HESA collects the data) and the Guardian publishes value-added scores for courses for which it is impossible to calculate them by their published methodology.

I think University league tables are useful if you take them for what they are and accept that they are open for manipulation. They are something to be used in conjunction with all the other information that's out there 💁🏻‍♀️
(The Guardian one is totally useless though)

The Guardian one is no more useless than the others. It has the advantage of focusing on teaching rather than research (which is of little relevance to most undergraduate students, since they won't be taught by the research stars, and will possibly never even see them). But it has the disadvantage that these data are even less reliable than the research data.

DD2's school is low achieving. A high proportion of students come from low income households and are first generation uni applicants.

Significant numbers of students accept unconditional offers (anecdotal from DD2) because they lack confidence in the process and want to be sure of where they are going and where they will be living. Their families cant afford to take the risk that they will end up with expensive accommodation/no accommodation.

DS1 (now in his third year) accepted one of the two 'unconditional if firmed' offers he received. Bizarrely, it seems, he only applied to universities which he would be happy to attend, so in our house, the response to neither Birmingham nor UEA was, 'like that was going to happen'. In fact, he thought long and hard as to which of his five offers to accept and only after attending offer holder days did he decide that Birmingham was 'first among equals' and so firmed it.

And carried on to get the 5 A grades that he was predicted. As he said, why would he not want to do his best, for his own satisfaction? Having the security of knowing where he would be going in the September didn't change that.

I (volunteer) help disadvantage but bright teenagers get into top universities. Whilst 20 years ago unconditionals went to amazing students, now I'm noticing that good students are being offered them by pretty ropey institutes, in the hope of luring them away from the prestigious universities. Often the kids I help have no idea that there's a sort of ranking of universities, and that certain unis can really help your future earning power, and they're really tempted.

We try to guide them towards the more prestigious institutions.

Pollaidh I am glad some students are getting the support they need to achieve their potential. This is sorely lacking at DD2;s school.

DD2 has benefited from older sister having already gone through the system and having 2 parents who went through it.

First generation students do need the support to combat self-doubt and impostor syndrome. One of DD2's friends is self-sabotaging himself out of a place at medical school because his thinking is that as only one medical school offered him a place that he isnt really good enough.

We try to guide them towards the more prestigious institutions.

Some of which (most notably a large Russell Group institution in the west midlands) hand out very large numbers of unconditional offers, many of them to students whose teachers describe them as quite mediocre.

I think institutions offer and students accept unconditional offers for understandable but not necessarily 'right' reasons.

The institutions put out so many 'seats' for a course. They want to know that those seats are going to be filled. Unconditional offers fill a number of seats from quite early in the process.

Students accept unconditional offers. Some will do so because they are uncertain of their grades - perhaps over-generous predictions. Other students because they want certainty both of course and accommodation.

We live in an area of low HE participation and experience area. A lot of the attitude to different institutions is that there are Oxford/Cambridge and then everywhere else. This can mean that some potential students are under quite a lot of pressure to go to the local university, stay at home, not get into too much debt, not break free from the familiar.

An unconditional offer gives those students a chance to move away/break away in a way which may be easier for family & friends to accept.

Above is from DD2's take on why some of her fellow students are accepting unconditional offers.

Nottingham offered my son his only unconditional and that was his 5th choice (not that it's a bad university of course) and that reflected what people are saying about. It's quite interesting what some of them are doing at the moment. Exeter used to be where you went if you weren't bright enough for Oxbridge, durham etc but Exeter seems deliberately to be making high offers to attract brighter people.

As someone said above yes lots of students do not want high paid work. I never said otherwise and I have not sneered at anyone on this thread. I just want sixth formers without perhaps the knowledge to know which universities a lot of people in high paid work went to to know the facts and then they can all make informed choices.

@GnomeDePlume

Depending on how many children with free school lunches or children who would be first generation to go to uni, your DD's school might be eligible for Social Mobility Foundation support. The SMF works with teachers in disadvantaged schools to identify disadvantaged but high potential students at age 17. They then get a 1:1 mentor to encourage them into a suitable uni, to do a suitable course, work through the UCAS process, support for interviews etc. They also get summer schools, extra trips to universities, help with UCAS statement etc, all aimed at getting them into higher prestige universities.

I think some eligible schools don't know it exists. Certainly my experience in other areas is that the schools with the most issues unfortunately don't always look out for such help, or even accept it when offered. I can only assume they're concentrating on day to day fire-fighting.

And if anyone is in a professional career, scientist, engineer, lawyer, accountant etc, every year they look for mentors, and at UCAS time, people to check UCAS statements. Mentoring is fairly low-effort, with high impact.

Thank you, that is interesting Pollaidh I will take a look and also talk with DD2 to see if she can find the right ear to drop the information into.

I will also look at the mentoring.