Medicine 2019

[kaykay72]

Hi,

Does anyone here have a DC applying for medicine to start in 2019? It would be nice to meet others as we embark on uni visits, predicted grades, UKCAT etc

We’re in Kent, d is planning to visit kings, UCL, Nottingham, Sheffield and Newcastle at the moment. She really wanted to go look at Belfast but they want three A’s plus an A at AS level but won’t accept her additional qualification in place of this (despite it having a higher UCAS tarriff). We went to an open afternoon at BSMS which she liked more than she thought she would, so is pondering the BMAT.

I have two older kids (well, adults now), one of whom has just finished his masters, the other just completed his first year elsewhere, but medical applications are just so complicated in comparison to their experiences at this stage.

Hope to hear from others in the same boat :-)

She is second year. A car is not strictly necessary, as the Med School will provide taxis if public transport is not available. However she had a pretty tough first year (difficult flat mate - not the course, which she enjoys) so we helped her buy a small car. Apparently quite a lot already have them, and it also makes it easier for her to get to sports training, and we would probably have got one anyway for her third year. Placements can be in places like Yeovil and Weston.

But probably means the gap in cost between London and elsewhere is not as great as it may seem at first.

Thank you . That’s all good to know. In the first year are the placements in blocks or odd days?

For first year it seemed to be a single day each week, initially in a GPS surgery, then HCA shifts in a hospital.

Oxbridge has its own advantages though. Horses for courses etc. Your descriptions of your DD's first year sound real alarm bells for me Needmoresleep - it sounds completely horrendous. Having less interaction with patients for the first years pales in comparison and one of the things you say repeatedly is how little interest a lot of the students seem to have in their chosen course/ academic life, which is not a problem much in evidence in Oxford or Cambridge. I think your DD's experience sounds frightening - I'd have been uber worried had it been any of mine. Just grim. Hopefully things will improve markedly but plenty of DC would have dropped out if they'd had to contend with the sort of things you've described.

Horses for courses. DD likes her course, particularly the mix of practical and academic, and does not envy her Oxbridge friends with highly loaded short terms.

I don’t think I have ever suggested that medics are not committed. There are well publicised issues at Bristol University, but to some extent these can be avoided by being careful in selecting first year accommodation, and being ready to move flat quickly if things are not working out, and there is no doubt that DD was very unlucky. Others regular posters seem to have DC who had the time of their lives last year in hall.

From second year onwards you are in your own flat with flatmates you have chosen. And the mix gives the course a much more vocational feel. Third year is clinical so different yet again, with more placements and less holiday. I think Bristol, and the surrounding area, is lovely and potentially a great place to live for five/six years. (Less gothic and touristy than Oxford.)

DD deferred at the last minute so found herself on the new course. Not what she thought she wanted so she has been pleasantly surprised. Though this might be true wherever people end up.

If she were applying again I think she might be tempted by Imperial, in part because she did some great work experience there, would reapply to Bristol, and would still be unlikely to apply for Oxbridge. It’s the practical stuff that she talks about, and the reason she wanted to read medicine in the first place. One big advantage of Bristol is that you can intercalate at a different University across a vast range of subjects, something she is keen to do.

I think what is important for new mums to read is to have insightful information into the application/ interview process. It is great to have information about the different universities and about experiences. As with life what suits one will not always suit another and I think it’s important not to get too competitive about which medical experience is best . For my daughter it’s important that she goes somewhere that has patient contact early on. For someone else, doing more theory may suit them on a more traditional course . That’s why it’s so helpful to have forums like this but I think it is important to remember that it isn’t a competition. We want them to be happy wherever they go and to find what is right for them as a young individual. Thank you for the advice about Bristol.

Tennismum I think Needmoresleep should be free to air her views about Oxbridge medicine if she wishes, since some parents on these thread will have DC applying there. It's not really appropriate to tick people off. But since there's usually a strong anti Oxbridge bias on these threads, it can be worth a parent with a DC whose been through that system countering some of the bias. My own DS and his friends flourished there and don't seem to have had difficulty in relating to patients. I don't find Needmoresleep overly competitive, but I do think she tends to speak negatively about a course she knows little about, for whatever reason. I agree Bristol is a fab city. As a general comment, regardless of the merits or otherwise of early patient contact, it's worth looking at drop out rates from different courses and trying to get underneath the figures, since some are worryingly high. The worst thing of all is to embark on a medical degree and then be asked to leave before completing. That leaves a DC in a horrible mess, dejected and owing money - it should be a key consideration in any choice.

Sheffield, Notts, UEA and Southampton also have early patient contact. Sure many more do but those were the open days we went to. DD recommends making a list of the type of courses you like, so look for type of teaching, dissection, chances of going abroad etc. Then see where your UKCAT and GCSEs fit best. Left her with a top 6 and after open days she chose her 4 - she hated Bristol for some reason (lack of campus and old halls didn't help). She's now at Nottingham having far too much fun.

@goodbyestranger funny you should interpret it that way round. I wasn’t saying it towards either party actually and was very grateful to needmoresleep for her information at Bristol. This is my DD absolute favourite. I was merely thinking actually that very thing. That all courses have there worth. The threads are very helpful to have real insights into the courses.

Haha - yes Tennismum.

I have to say that as a patient, I'd prefer not to have a callow youth of eighteen peering at me, however keen they were for 'patient contact'. I'd far rather a twenty one year old who had a proper grounding in science, even if they weren't quite so lovely as people. But again, each to their own!

They do train them a bit before letting them loose on patients 😁. And lots of the willing victims are patient educators so have signed up for the prodding. There are courses to suit every type of learning and I think that's great. At the end they are all becoming valuable doctors for the NHS which can only be a good thing.

Although not all will be equally valuable mumsneedwine, otherwise we wouldn't see the sorts of shocking clinical negligence cases that we do, or hear of questionable decisions that are made by certain doctors. Not that that has anything to do with the type of learning - or I assume not anyhow.

Personally, I've absolutely no qualms at all seeing a health professional - or someone training to be one after having undergone some of the most stringent tests, checks and assessments, etc. - whether this person is 18 or 80; male or female; gay or straight, etc. it doesn't matter.

Unless, of course, if I had some embarrassing conditions such as uncontrollable body hair growth (in the wrong places), flatulence and/or fecal incontinence, and god forbids, rectal itch, etc. in which case I'd rather shut myself away from the world. . .

peteneras no, none of those would apply. I'm completely fragrant, a neat 5' 4" and slim, also lacking in almost all hair after thirty years of waxing in reputable salons :) No, it's simply the maturity and amount of training, or lack of one and/ or the other.

Perhaps having had eight DC and tricky instances in several deliveries, with at least three instances where life and death have been at issue has given me reasonable experience of medicine from a patient perspective, alongside the sheer volume of medical appointments that you'd expect with that volume of DC. Or perhaps it's the legal experience I have which colours my views.

Well, I have a fine head of hair having said that, shoulder length.

@Tennismum19 my DS has done first 6 weeks at Sheffield - he turned down Bristol - big reason was cost of living. Also was worried about course which was very new. He has had a fair bit of contact - GP placements and they also do a scheme where they have to visit patients in the community and talk to them about their health issues. He says he can’t imagine not having any patient contact (his friend is at Oxford) for 3 years. They also do full body dissection at Sheffield, which he started yesterday. Sheffield is a big cohort but he says that’s good as there are so many people to meet.

@movingmountains thank you that’s great to know. Yes Sheffield always looked great . We live very down south so have kept relatively down south with her choices. Thank you for the information. Glad your DS is enjoying himself

@tennismum - that is the only disadvantage with Sheffield - we are very far down in SW - it is a long drive!!!

Biomed offer from Bristol! It’s plan C (after a gap year and reapplying if this year’s application doesn’t work) but it’s still a nice boost. Same grades as for medicine tho....

I am much encouraged to see young potential medics thinking and planning some six, seven or even eight years ahead of their time to join this noble profession as opposed to some negative comments that I’ve read recently somewhere about the medical profession in the UK.

I come from a medical family with as many medics in the immediate circle as you have fingers and thumbs which include junior doctors, GPs, consultants/specialists, medical professor and examiner, etc. And I haven’t included the dentists here.

If ‘commitment’ is being sought by admissions tutors in recruiting young medics, then look no further than bellylaugh’s DD. But My Goodness, bellylaugh, your DD is jumping the gun a little bit too early in looking at the foundation programmes for newly qualified doctors at this stage. She should really be concentrating on how to get into a medical school successfully right now, i.e. by acing her GCSEs and A-levels and getting some meaningful WE in between. It is a well-known fact that Medicine is a super competitive business even before you start and will remain competitive for the rest of your career.

The Foundation Programme post-graduation is no different. And I’m glad actually you(r)/DD asks about this question as not much of this subject is being discussed anywhere. Essentially, it is a two-year post-graduation training programme i.e. F1 and F2 for newly qualified doctors with each foundation year comprising of 3 four-month training ‘blocks’ i.e. 6 ‘blocks’ of 4 months each to finish the programme.

Different hospitals in different deaneries have their own unique training ‘blocks’ for each year – this is where the “jobs” come in where different individuals apply for the “jobs” they hope to get at different deaneries. Needless to say, the “favourite” jobs are over-subscribed [think Competition] and there are traditionally some favourite deaneries e.g. London, Severn, Oxford and perhaps the Midlands [again, think Competition].

Please be aware a “deanery” can consist of hospitals spread many dozens of miles apart. The whole of Scotland is a deanery as is the whole of Wales. London may be a favourite deanery but London South Thames can mean anything from central London to Brighton; from Woolwich to Worthing; or from Croydon to Canterbury or Margate!

The foundation programme is organised by the United Kingdom Foundation Programme Office (UKFPO) – the ‘UCAS’ for doctors, if you like – and allocation to jobs in the different deaneries throughout the land is by way of national competition.

Quote:
Applications will have a maximum score of 100 points and this will consist of two components:

Educational Performance Measure (EPM) – 50 points maximum
Situational Judgement Test (SJT) – 50 points maximum
The EPM and SJT are added together to make the total score. From this, the applicants are then matched in accordance with their score and preference.

Not all deaneries offer the complete 2-year programmes. In some deaneries you’ll have to apply for F2 separately after your F1.

You may find the following links interesting reading:

1. Are the best foundation programmes the hardest to get into? Click on the map to see ‘East Anglia’ where nobody actually wants to go. (Cambridge medicine – anyone?)

1. Interactive map of foundation schools. Click to find out which area you are interested in.

1. Stats and Facts that Oxbridge is not the be-all and the end-all – not for Medicine, anyway, - and the best medics are not found at Oxbridge Page 11.

Good luck to all!

Thanks peternas. That's really helpful - mine still a first year but she has vaguely looked into how to get a good F1. For now she's enjoying learning clinical skills, and how to manage a 9 am lecture after a 3am finish to hall formal. Gets them ready for night shifts I suppose

It's actually not a bad thing to know something about foundation years or the path to becoming a doctor for the interviews... Just saying :)

Just to add to Peteneras's excellent post, the educational performance measure (EPM) is on a scale of 34 to 50, with up to 43 points available for decile ranking within your own graduating cohort* (43 for top decile, 42 for second decile, 41 for third decile, down to 34 for bottom decile), up to 5 points for an additional degree (5 for a PhD, 4 for a master's or 1st class honours in a bachelor's, 3 for a 2i [or 1st in Nottingham's BMedSci], and so on) and up to 2 points for peer-reviewed publications.

www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2018-07/UKFP%202019%20EPM%20Framework%20Final_0.pdf

• Your own graduating cohort means all the students graduating from your medical school in the same year. You are not (currently) compared against students graduating from other medical schools.

Interesting link peteneras, especially for me since that's DS's cohort. You have to really cross reference a lot of statistics to make anything of them. The link confirms what DS said and which I repeated above - his and the other most popular London deanery required in excess of 84 points, which was the average point score for only three schools. Once confirmed at a deanery, you have to choose from a list of jobs, and it helps to have as many points as possible in hand to get your first choice of three four month long jobs (you opt for a suite of jobs once your deanery is allocated). DS was lucky to get his first choice of jobs within his deanery but it can't do any harm to know that the points clock starts ticking pretty much from the word go. Anyhow, a really interesting link - thanks.

Benjamin I did kind of say that in layman's language on Sunday ....