Bristol University

[3catsandadog]

Hi my DD is looking to apply for Vetmed this year at Bristol as one of her choices.

I have just seen on the news about yet another sad suicide here which is apparently the 8th in 2 years.

Does Bristol have a problem different to other unis as I don't remember hearing about any others? Is the pastoral care lacking in some way?

Are there any parents of DC there already who can provide reassurance?

Thank you

How many students are they sampling at Bristol? It doesn’t feel scientific unless they have all had pastoral/MH problems which seems highly unlikely. It’s possibly hearsay and chat. Most students know univedsity isn’t like school. That doesn’t mean support should not be there but it cannot replicate 6th form and Mum and dad.

Bristol, it is reported, are reviewing/changing their pastoral care structure. York did exactly the same review after 5 student deaths in 2015. (MN seems to have overlooked these). Bristol has been asked to look at their systems and consider introducing successful ones from elsewhere. Any university (town) can have deaths once several deaths occur. This effect is being looked into as well because it is known young people who are vulnerable latch into other deaths.

However, it’s difficult to predict who will need help if mental health difficulties are not known about prior to university. I notice today that all students, in every university, are being asked to report changes in their friends that worry them. University staff are inevitably somewhat detached from students. They don’t know the students particularly well. Friends and family know more. It is also being considered whether to change the confidentiality regarding MH at university. Parents may well be included in care in future apparently.

Ooh, triplets. However lovely. My twins have chosen separate halls but fairly near by and they have mostly different friends but it's nice they are near each other and certainly makes visits easier that in the end they chose the same - they both had to pick Durham or Bristol after their offers as first choice and we coudl have had one at Bristol and one at Durham which of course is fine ( I'm from the NE). I would have been happy with either of those.

Mine hsave not found problems with pastoral care at Bristol which seems to do quite a bit and is planning new arrangements which as they involve abolishing the warden at the halls doesn't sound that good an idea - an on site warden sounds just the job for pastoral care but may be they have thought up something more useful.

My view has always been that when a student signs up the university should ask the student if they consent to their parents being told about certain issues. I know academics don't seem to like that idea and I realise a lot of students do not want their parents told even if they choose to drop out and are in Costa Rica rather than the university but if the student has consented I don't see why parents can't be told under the current and new data protection legislation and if that causes more university admin with students changing their consents later during their course then so be it.

There has just been a very good discussion on Radio 5 about MH and university students. It was with Professor Stephen Worth who is looking at how the NHS supports students at university. There is also a report from Universities UK on this subject too with recommendations. The conversation highlighted several issues:

Moving away from support and family can be a big issue. The student who might be vulnerable would be better in an old fashioned catered hall. One danger is that some students hide in their rooms and are never seen. Catered can help monitor this. So can the much maligned freshers week activities. Students should be encouraged to declare MH issues before they start (apparently a lot don’t). There needs to be open knowledge about who might need help. Many other students don’t know and neither do staff. This is obviously a difficult area to address but if the university doesn’t know, it’s dufficult to provide effective support. The decision to be away from home and support is a difficult one for some students with MH and individual needs should be paramount.

The big problem the Professor noted was the fact that students have to start all over again accessing the NHS at university in terms of GP care and services accessed through a GP. You can only have one GP so the students move between home and university, which does not provide continuity of care.

Apart from having a cup of tea with the warden at my DDs hall at Bristol on day 1, I’m not sure this was a great system. I think it depends on the student contacting the warden and, from what the Professor was saying, many students don’t do this. When a student is 18 and is at university, both the NHS and the University treat them as adults. This is why students can become isolated.

I have heard the same bevelino from colleagues including examples of students (some their DCs) who requested help but the system was obstructive (making it very difficult to get appointments for example at the students' health centre ) and eventually failed them. Vulnerable students are often unable to be forceful in those situations and they should not have to be.
Bristol University senior management does not have a good reputation in academic circles so let's hope that they are more effectual in remedying this.

The big problem the Professor noted was the fact that students have to start all over again accessing the NHS at university in terms of GP care and services accessed through a GP. You can only have one GP so the students move between home and university, which does not provide continuity of care.
This is definitely an issue and even more so now that many GP surgeries are now only providing emergency care for visitors (i.e. students at home) due to restricted funding.

According to The Times, Bristol University is facing a “meltdown” in its student support system.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bristol-university-heads-for-meltdown-after-student-deaths-7j3xp3xj3

Don't forget that the central player in this will be the student health centre which is NHS funded and run. The priority may be to manage it to run a profit and therefore relatively clinically understaffed and with poor management and administration staff.
However the university can also help with its other pastoral / support services. One issue will be that academic staff involved may not be trained sufficiently or the workload of pastoral support not acknowledged and financed by the university.

The Bristol student disability service may also be difficult to navigate for diffident , vulnerable students especially in non straightforward situations.

Is there a way they can only recruit students who are mentally robust and suitable for university then? Have they started recruiting more who should never be there because they just cannot cope with being away from home? If they too more who had spent 5 years away from home already from boarding school for example would that solve some of the problems as those ones have already got used to be away from their parents?

I have 2 dd’s going to Bristol this autumn ( exam results permitting) and we are very concerned indeed.

Part of the problem is that institutions have to play by the book, treat students as independent adults, respect privacy, etc.
Parents don't.

When I dropped the DC off at their Universities on moving-in day, I made sure that I had the mobile number of at least one of their flatmates. That way if, for whatever reason, I couldn't contact my DC directly I knew that I could contact someone literally on their doorstep and get that person to raise the alarm.

Actually, why are you concerned? Don't you think that your two DD will have each other's backs?

Is there a way they can only recruit students who are mentally robust and suitable for university then?

Do you have a simple diagnostic test?

Do you think it would be reasonable to deny brilliant people a university education just because they have mental health issues?

Almost all university places are offered based on UCAS forms. Universities don't have the resources to interview, and even if they did they couldn't possibly pick up possible mental health issues. It would almost certainly be illegal to use mental health issues as a reason to turn the application down.

One option would be to have the equivalent of a boarding school matron for each student hall (or college) who would actively look out for students, be an easy door to knock on or for parents to contact to alert in possible emergencies. These 'matron equivalents' could help particularly first year students navigate the support / health system when needed. Relying on other students or stretched academics or staff at stretched NHS university services is not enough.

In many places there are older students who live in in exchange for reduced rent, however, these students are not mental health specialists and my friend who did it was overwhelmed with the responsibility for looking after a possibly suicidal student with serious self-harm issues and left the post very soon afterwards. Some students need a huge amount of support and the fragmented NHS structure, larger class sizes and just general detached nature of the more business-like degree provision means many just don't have it. We do have good welfare provision and a campus GP service but there is a waiting list for counselling. Bristol could definitely learn lessons from elsewhere. This is not a new problem though, in my uni (Oxbridge) there was a spate of suicides but often there was a block on reporting in those days due to the contagion effect, I have no idea why this is not done now.

I meant there was a spate of suicides when I was at college 30 years ago. It really is an ongoing problem and with more students than ever going to uni, numbers will be proportionately higher.

Actually one simple tihng my daughter had at Bristol and my sons don't as it;'s changed since then is she used to have the cleaners pushing in one a way to vaccum the bed room floor - at least when that happens you can check someone is not very ill in there. So in a sense respect students' privacy as "little" as we did 13 years ago. It won't do them any harm.

DD had a lot of support from her senior resident, (springisthething Bristol has these but is proposing to do away with thems as part of their reforms) and I agree with much of what is said in their letter to the University www.keep-our-communities.org.uk/read-the-letters/open-letter-from-67-senior-residents-to-rhs

All the welfare support in the world wont help if students are not encouraged to make use of it. So initial signposting is a vital part of the process.

I have been surprised by Bubbles DDs sanguinity. From what I have heard there was a major issue in her hall at the start of the year. (The version I heard was 4 girls drinks were spiked and at least one male student was asked to leave.) Not nice, and sadly not unique. First year in hall, as Xenia has confirmed from her own student diary, can be tough. Dd really struggled with a flatmate who not only kept nocternal hours but decided that no one else should sleep when she was awake, to the extent of knocking on doors at 3.00am. As a parent it sounded like a combination of Yr7 and Lord of the Flies.

My DD is generally resilient, has no obvious MH problems and fine now she has moved. But the lack of sleep, politics within the flat, and a full timetable left her at rock bottom. The senior resident was crucial in helping her retain perspective. Eventually, following a distressing incident, steering her to welfare and to the accommodation office.

I would agree with others about problems accessing the medical service. Appointments are handed out each day at 9.00am. No good if you are supposed to be in lectures or placements then. And you see a different doctor each time. Not great if you need help chasing a referral.

We did not expect to have to support as much as we did. It was OK as we are not too far away and could afford to either go down, or at one point pick her up and bring her home. I hope the support is there for others without the same advantages, but our experience suggests it might not be.

Which would you say are the quietest non party halls? We have only looked at Goldney Hall
Thanks

I think Bubbles has said that her daughter is in Wills. DD suggests Durdham is popular with scientists, many of whom need to be up for 9.00am lectures.

The pity seems to be, at least when DD was looking, that quiet=single sex and seemed mainly aimed at overseas students or those who, culturally, would not want mixed. Other Universities seem to have more provision for those who are sociable, but not wildly so.

Bristol usually have a link on the website which shows which halls are most oversubscribed which can be helpful. Goldeney is v popular if I recall. It depends if you are looking for catered or non catered.
The student room is worth looking at- a visit would be the best way to see. Consider transport to Langford too. Dd was in Durdham which had a reputation for being dull and is further away from the bus terminal etc at Stoke bishop. It suited her with a heavy timetable and workload.

ALL university mental health services are overstretched. My DD went to Birmingham last October and despite being registered with disability services 6 months before she was due to start (she had an UC offer) and the university being fully aware of her disabilities and the accommodations she would need, it took them almost 5 weeks to allocate her her ‘key’ worker, by which time her mental health had deteriorated to a point she was forced to come home for safety due to her anxiety levels being through the roof and was granted a medical leave of absence for the rest of the year. All of this, most likely, would have been avoidable if things had been out in place ready for when she started. And this was a student with clearly identified needs well in advance, they just did not have the resources to put things in place in a timely manner until a crisis point was reached. And yes, yes to parental disclosure, we had to jump through hoops for them to speak with us, it is bloody ridiculous, 18 year olds do not magically become competent adults overnight. I am 48 and still don’t feel a fully competent adult some days!

Bubbles I agree - the ridiculous pressure of freshers week and the fact that most students now go straight into self-catering halls where its basically a free for all is a major issue. Having to cope with flatmates who regularly come back drunk at 4am (throughout the year) I think is unacceptable as is having to live with people who have no idea of how to treat shared living areas. No wonder so many students struggle.

Both students that I knew who committed suicide at uni had far more profound things going on than noise problems/ lack of sleep etc. I don't mean that the latter isn't absolutely bloody to try to cope with but the two situations - being resilient but utterly ground down and being in a place where jumping off Clifton Suspension Bridge or Magdalen Tower seems the only option for release - are two very different things. I don't think the two types of situation should be conflated. The issues surrounding GPs registration and swift access to mental health support
put barriers in the way even for those who are in a dark place but are reaching for help - so for those who are resisting help or don't recognise that they need it....

Magdalen Tower has been closed off for years now actually. One of my daughters was at Magdalen and each time she took me up she had to get a form signed to confirm that she was in sound mind and only then would the porters unlock the door.

Stranger, I dont think anyone is suggesting that there is a connection between being utterly miserable at University and being suicidal. The latter is a sad confirmation on quite serios MH issues.

However I suspect that there is a huge difference between Oxford, where, as you have said yourself, a student cannot go to the loo without seeing posters offering mental health support. And Bristol wher you are likely to be placed in a flat with 10 others with no supervision, no consideration and no hygiene. Fine, if like Bubbles DD, you find your people - or indeed perhaps went to University with your people, but not great if being surrounded by people but not fitting in leaves you feeling isolated.

The MN approach seems to be to blame the student, suggesting they are 'snowflake' or weak. My impression is that this is unfair. Very few of us would survive with little sleep, vomit outside our bedroom doors, food stolen from fridges, large numbers invading for 'pres' and our crockery being used to cut ketamine. Lord of the Flies.

It would be interesting to know drop out rates. Oxford vs Bristol. Including those who defer for a year rather than sit first year exams. And perhaps including attendence rates at both Universoties. Suicide is a specific indicator of problems, and may well reflect much deeper individual problems. However my guess is that other indicators may also suggest that Bristol is quite a tough environment for a significant number of students.

(And my personal view is that the normalisation of drug use in Bristol is somewhere in the mix.)

I think it's worth making the point because of the suicides at Bristol, which is what's created publicity. I don't think one should compare suicide to any other situation.

I do agree completely that the things you describe your DD having to deal with must have been incredibly stressful.

Not just my daughter. The story of the spiked drink in Bubbles DD’s hall is typical of a number of other tales.

Perhaps symptomatic is the idea that an Oxford porter would be interested in a student’s mental health. No porters at Bristol. And security will only hear noise if a student actually reports it. As in, is willing to risk alienating flat mates by phoning them. And then there is a danger that they will face a ‘whole flat’ fine.

It would be interesting to compare other metrics like deferrals and drop out rates. I suspect that even though Oxford has potentially a more vulnerable population in terms of anxiety and perfectionism, they do a better job in terms of looking after their students and providing them with an acceptable living/study environment.