How strikes are affecting students

[Pigsnkids]

Young people are selecting their 2018 university choices now but may not be aware of the impact the current lecturers strike is having on the amount of tuition students are receiving, how access to facilities are restricted and how exams are being disrupted. My elder daughter, an undergraduate, received only one in three of her lectures last term, and my friend's daughter turned up to find her exams had been cancelled and would be reinstated at short notice. While the NUS is asking the students to support the lecturers, many young people are losing valuable tuition which they have paid for. Most of us have felt uneasy at the vast debts they are incurring, which it is estimated will take 30 years to pay off, and now we find they are not receiving what they have paid for and don't seem to have any consumer protection or recompense. The contracts they have signed deem the universities not liable for strike action yet negotiations have been going on for over a year. Whatever your thoughts on the pension issue - ask potential universities what they intend to do to resolve the situation and how they will ensure your child gets the education they are paying for. This is such a shame for our young people starting out on their careers. Alternatively, suggest a gap year.

[Surelyyoudontmeanthat]

"You just excluded the entire post 92 sector, including several universities in the world top 10."

I thought the post 92 sector weren't on strike (from posts below) - am I wrong? Pre 92, I seem to remember that LSE and Birmingham didn't strike, from some list I've seen somewhere.

I doubt that many UK students will be influenced in their choice - it will be interesting to see if any international students are.

[hellsbells99]

At the moment UCU members have announced strikes for next week at 12 universities. I don't know if this will change once the current ballot results are received.
www.ucu.org.uk/article/9426/UCU-members-to-be-consulted-over-latest-USS-pension-dispute-proposals?list=1676

[user150463]

But Birmingham and LSE don't generally do small group tuition, so PP would exclude those too on those grounds.

[Pigsnkids]

user150463 Finally, universities have committed to using the money withheld from staff pay for students, so it is completely untrue that students are receiving no compensation.
Sorry, but I seem to have missed your reply on this one. Can you elaborate on what the university's will be doing for students with the pay withheld from staff? One thread stated that there will be catch up sessions on tuition missed - but since my daughter has been told strike action will most likely continue into the next term (and then she has exams), how will this work? Presumably she would have been tested (maybe still will be tested) on subjects she hasn't been taught? Will there be catch up sessions after the exams?
argumentativefeminist Personally I don't think there's any moral high ground here. Universities are businesses. Students are customers and have a right to the tuition they have paid for. This doesn't mean they don't support the lecturers having a better financial package but it does mean they should have a voice. Pressure should be coming from all sides to find a resolution to these issues before they drag on and affect the 2018 intake.

[user150463]

Feeling deeply relieved about transitioning to a country where parents do not view universities as businesses (and where pension cuts of 40% are not on the cards).

Finally, universities have committed to using the money withheld from staff pay for students, so it is completely untrue that students are receiving no compensation.

I cannot state what sixty or so different universities are planning to do, particularly since it is unclear that the strikes are over. (If the USS deal is refused on Friday, as seems likely from social media, there will be more strikes from next week onwards.)

but since my daughter has been told strike action will most likely continue into the next term (and then she has exams), how will this work? Presumably she would have been tested (maybe still will be tested) on subjects she hasn't been taught? Will there be catch up sessions after the exams?

In all three universities I deal with, students have been regularly emailed with the current status, timescales for making decisions, changes to assessments and so on. (I get all of these communications as an external examiner.)

There is no one universal answer to these questions, as different courses will have been affected differently. In all three universities I work with, students have already been told that material that was not lectured will not be in the exams - because learning objectives can still be met (hence meeting legal requirements) without specifically examining this material. This is not necessarily the case for all subjects - not least because in many subjects it would be very reasonable to examine on material learned independently, not in lectures, anyhow.

Changes to assessments and exam (lengths) have not, for the most part, been confirmed by examination boards yet but students are typically being updated every week with the status.

What use would catch up sessions after exams be for most subjects? Note that lecturers who had pay deducted for not teaching classes are refusing to deliver classes on the missed material unless the pay deductions are reversed. You cannot withhold pay for striking and then expect people to do the job for nothing.

In subject areas where material builds successfully on earlier material, the material necessary for subsequent years' courses will not have been dropped.

[user150463]

This doesn't mean they don't support the lecturers having a better financial package but it does mean they should have a voice.

It is not a better financial package that is being requested. It is maintaining the status quo: academics who pay 25% of their income into pension funds for 40+ years should not be asked to take pension cuts of 40% to fund marketing and loans for unnecessary new buildings etc.

[user150463]

BTW my university is clearly not a business. If it were, it would charge the same fees as Harvard (think 40k+ per year) and fill all its places with no problems. (And have plenty of money to pay me the same as a Harvard professor i.e. at least twice my current salary....)

Parents should be really careful what they wish for.

[sendsummer]

User your university is extremely unlikely to be delivering a 'Harvard' teaching package (including quality of academics) and therefore would have to up its game quite considerably to justify charging such fees Most U.K. universities in such a situation would be charging similar to USA state universities.

[UpOver]

It is not yet possible for students to be told what topics will be dropped as this has not yet been decided by the (management led) examination boards.

My DC has received emails from a couple lecturers detailing topics that will not be examanable as a result of the strikes. The emails are not ambiguous. I’ll suggest that she double checks exactly what the situation is. .

I know it was provocative of me to say that a couple of my DCs lecturers have been lazy but it sounds like they have been. Is it really that impossible to believe that in among all the conscientious hard working lecturers there are a few bad apples? 🤷🏻‍♀️

BTW DC is also doing maths at a highly ranked Uni. She supports the strikes and is happy with how most of the lecturers have dealt with it. She feels the majority of her lecturers have done everything they can to minimise the effect of the strikes on the students. It’s a shame not all the lecturers have been so considerate.

[user150463]

your university is extremely unlikely to be delivering a 'Harvard' teaching package (including quality of academics)

I have actually taught at Harvard. I have taught at Oxbridge. There is no question that the calibre of teaching is much better at the latter.

And the quality of academics? Given the very low salaries in the UK, the quality is remarkable at Oxbridge. Oxbridge is in world league tables at the top for research.

[user150463]

UpOver it is quite possible that your DD's university has already decided on mitigation procedures and what will/will not be in exams. My point was that lecturers are not meant to send out emails about what will/won't be in exams, how assessments will be changed, without this going through appropriate exam boards. The exact procedures vary by university (and indeed by course).

[user150463]

BTW international fees for my subject at Oxbridge are around 25k plus 7-10k for college fees. Absolutely zero problem filling all available places with fantastic candidates.

[UpOver]

user150463
Thanks for explaining that. That sounds like it should be ok then. I’ll still suggest she double checks.

[Primrosie]

Why does every Mumsnet HE thread end up debating the same two universities out of the 130+ in the UK? Oxbridge educates 2% of undergraduates, surely the other 98% deserve a decent higher education?

These two are totally unrepresentative of the education received at other unis. They have huge endowments to subsidise UG teaching and no other UK institution comes close.
They would be worth higher fees and it is ridiculous, as I said earlier, that hundreds of other substandard institutions are allowed to charge the same tuition fee. These low ranking UK unis charge more than excellent public universities.

Cambridge may come up with its own solution to this mess I understand.

user150etc - as someone with, presumably, well developed critical thinking skills what do you think is the solution to your pension issue and the wider HE funding problems in the UK?
I assume your new country has a better system?

Fewer students and better government funding?
Private universities?
Something else?

I am genuinely interested as I want a decent system for my DC and their generation. The current one, which prioritises taxpayer funding of low quality degrees (students won't benefit so won't pay much off leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill) over the highest quality degrees (student will pay them off, taxpayer pays nothing) is serving no one, except the top few % in the know, as far as I can tell.

[Primrosie]

These low ranking UK unis charge more than excellent public universities in the US.

[sendsummer]

User I was not referring to Oxbridge (or Imperial) as from your previous posts you are in a senior post elsewhere.
I presume that your time at Harvard was a short term post or visitor. You will know that junior non tenured academics there are not paid high salaries and therefore equivalent to the academics on strike in the UK.
International students pay substantially higher fees in the UK of course. If strikes continue, universities' senior management will have to be more careful than with UK students and consider a PR exercise to compensate for lost teaching time.

[sendsummer]

Primrosie I agree that for the 'in state fees' of public universities in the USA, students get a better deal contact time wise than UK humanities students of most U.K. universities. However don't forget that the level of expertise required for teaching the first couple of years at an American college is less due to delayed subject specialisation in their system.

[SweetieBaby]

I'm hoping that the posters here criticising parents or students for daring to suggest that the students should get the tuition that they are paying for - I hope that you are equally as relaxed if your holiday abroad is disrupted or cut short because air traffic controllers are on strike, or if your operation is cancelled because junior doctors are on strike or even if your milk bottle is only half full, despite paying the full amount, because farmers are in dispute with the supermarkets? Clearly you have no problem paying for something that you subsequently don't receive if it means showing solidarity.

You are unhappy that lecturers have been paying into pensions for years and now the terms of these pensions are changing. It's wrong, I agree entirely with your outrage. In the same way that my pension has also been cut after I have paid into it for 17 years and my husband's has changed for the 2nd time after paying into it for over 30 years. I'm guessing again, in the interests of solidarity, that you will welcome your household bills increasing substantially in order to cover the costs of maintaining these pension schemes (I work in retail and my husband for a utility company)? Or are you one of the many demanding that the cost of your bilks is kept as low as possible even if the only way to do that is by cutting benefits of the workforce?

Pensions, at the levels received by previous generations, are not affordable so something has to change.

You say that you look forward to working in a place where students don't see themselves as consumers - unfortunately as soon as the government and universities started charging students they made them consumers. If you don't want consumers/customers don't charge. I think it would be good if students realised that they have some power as customers and vote with their feet. Go to the universities that offer the best deal and boycott those that don't deliver.

From seeing how desperately many universities are trying to attract students I would imagine that they need to be careful. My daughter was bombarded with phone calls last year from the unis that she applied to all vying to get her to accept their offer.

[titchy]

unfortunately as soon as the government and universities started charging students

No. Government. NOT Government and universities. The universities did not want to charge fees. That was imposed on us by Tony Blair.

[SweetieBaby]

Ok. Although the universities decide how much to charge though don't they? And I guess they decide what to provide for that fee? So they could provide each student with 37 hours of tuition per week if they wanted?

Judging by our recent experiences it seems that there are now more places available than students and market forces will come into play at some point. I don't think the attitude of " you should be grateful that you've been allowed to study here" will attract many students unless you are an outstanding university, offering something unavailable elsewhere.

[HeddaGarbled]

When the tuition fees were raised to £9000 per year, the government's intention was that this would be a maximum, charged by only some universities (we know who they meant). But the universities wouldn't play and all went for the maximum fees.

It's patently obvious that some degrees are worth more than others, but do we really want the American system where rich parents buy the best degrees for their children and poor families are denied equality of access because they can't afford it? (Obviously, a minority of wealthy parents would totally love this.)

[user150463]

I presume that your time at Harvard was a short term post or visitor. You will know that junior non tenured academics there are not paid high salaries and therefore equivalent to the academics on strike in the UK.

Interesting assumptions.

Regardless of the type of post held at Harvard (tenured or not), I would certainly know about the education there in my own subject. It is simply not comparable to the Oxbridge system of small group tutorials.

Of course universities that are lower down in the rankings would not be able to charge Harvard type fees for most of their courses - that's completely obvious. But a theme of this thread is that students are not getting value for money. I am pointing out that at the very top UK universities students are actually getting a bargain for 9k per year, by international standards, and if the very top universities were to act as businesses they would be charging UK students far more than 9k per year. There is a lot of evidence supporting this.

[user150463]

So they could provide each student with 37 hours of tuition per week if they wanted?

37 contact hours per week? Where would the time be for independent study?

For every contact hour, a lecturer is assigned several non-contact hours for preparation. To give students 37 hours of tuition per week would be incredibly expensive, even if you wanted to pay lecturers at very low rates.

[YellowPrimula]

Just a question of interest but at US universities does the fee include accommodation , how much on top of the tuition do US parents have to budget ?

[sendsummer]

user please do not hesitate correct my assumptions about the nature of your post at Harvard if they are untrue. They are based on probabilities.

You continue to refer to Oxbridge as a comparison to Harvard and its fees but my comments apply to the majority of universities as a follow on from your post.
BTW my university is clearly not a business. If it were, it would charge the same fees as Harvard (think 40k+ per year) and fill all its places with no problems. (And have plenty of money to pay me the same as a Harvard professor i.e. at least twice my current salary....)


Just to repeat my PPs it is unrealistic to expect that UK universities except for Oxbridge and Imperial could claim the same fees as Harvard or MIT or Stanford etc. That is particularly true for humanities degrees for which contact time is far less in U.K. than US system. Comparison with fees of US public universities is more appropriate

YellowPrimula no it does n't
The CUG link gives some information although not up to date www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/north-america/united-states/