A levels dilemma

[Uninspirednamewise]

DD is only in Year 10 but is a forward planner(!) and is already starting to think about A level choices. Her best subjects at GCSE are French and Spanish. From the point of view of enjoyment, DD would like to take both at A level, but with the need to pick just three A levels, she is also thinking about what options will be closed off if two of her A level choices are languages. DD is clear that she does not want to do a traditional languages degree at university, as she doesn't particularly enjoy the study of literature. She does really like the idea of doing a degree that involves a year abroad. DD's next best subject is maths, so one possibility for A level choices would be French, Spanish and maths. If DD were choosing a fourth subject it would almost certainly be chemistry. (If not chemistry, it would be biology.) If DD were choosing her three A levels based on the subjects she would enjoy most in sixth form (without looking further ahead), DD would choose French, Spanish and maths. However, she is concerned that those choices effectively close down the possibility of doing a science degree. That raises the possibility of dropping a language to make room for chemistry, but DD really doesn't want to drop either language at A level. I am thinking that if DD wants to keep the option of a science degree open, she should definitely keep maths, along with whatever other science A level she takes.

Like most Year 10s, DD doesn't yet know what she wants to do career-wise. Obviously, in Year 10, DD is under no immediate pressure to make a choice, but she tells me she has seen this dilemma looming for a while. I'm not sure what the right advice is. Any thoughts?

There are plenty of MFL degrees which don't involve studying literature. My dd hasn't had to do any literature in her degree - she looked very carefully at course structures, as there are usually various options available. (And the more languages you study, the fewer 'culture' options you'll have, so more chance to avoid literature!)

You can also do joint honours such as French and maths.

There are many other degrees which don't require specific A levels, such as law, classics, PPE or philosophy.or economics (as she could have the maths), etc. I think when you're her age it's hard because you don't know what you don't know, iykwim.

Universities seem to encourage you to download prospectuses these days, but you can still get the printed versions - maybe just order a couple and let her have a look through, get an idea of different courses and their requirements.

I have been looking at this sort of thing for DS who is year 12. Quite a few degrees in things like economics and international business with a language and an opportunity to study abroad. Oxford Brookes does 'applied languages' with a path to follow (eg business) and , unless you choose a path with it, seems to be mainly language focused. There are also translating degrees of course these days.

One word of warning , though : the A levels are very focused on teaching the language through culture and literature. DS hates this.because he is a misanthrope

Thank you for the replies. I think having a look at some prospectuses is a good idea. Although it seems early, I'd actually wondered about taking DD to some university open days, not so much with a view to deciding which university to apply to, but to focus her mind on which area of study appeals to her. DD is quite focused on finding a degree which enhances her earning potential. She tells me she wants to find a career which pays well, could potentially allow her to go part-time in the future and has an ethical dimension to it, ie she would like to feel her job contributes something of benefit to the wider world. So quite a few boxes to tick! My own thoughts are that, on its own, having a high level of competence in another language doesn't generally greatly enhance earning potential, but that having another language as an extra skill in addition to something else could potentially be very useful in the jobs market.

Well, teenagers are so different these days ! I just did something I liked!

But your description of her does sound like a law degree to me?

OP I would second what @Piggywaspushed said re the language A-Levels being very based on literature, that is the case definitely for French, and I would expect for Spanish too

She sounds very sensible. So the best way to those aims are getting the highest grades in the A levels and going to the highest level of university she can manage, ideally top 5 or top 10. Maths A level is a massive jump up from GCSE in my view and my sons are glad they didn't do it (although some people love it and there are more A* in it than other subjects as you are either very good at it or not so good I suppose).

Science A levels to me are very very hard but if she can get A* and A at A level in them then great. Have a look at what grades people in the sixth form at her school got in particular subjects as a guide.

Only half or fewer of lawyers read law at university by the way although you have a second year to pay for if you don't/ Also if she does a language degree that is a fourth year to pay for so perhaps just keep her language as a hobby.

(My daughter regretted her chemistry A level by the way but it is certainly a good one if you can manage it).

Make sure two of her A levels are facilitating subjects if possible.

What about maths, economics and French? (That is obviously not a science career choice but would include banking, law, management consultancy - lots of good high paid jobs with that if she can get top grades.

The 4th year of a language isn't full fees to my understanding

Out of interest atia where is your DD studying?

Yes, not full fees. Obviously your rent and travel might work out pricey!

Will pm you piggy

Thank you for the replies. Yes, I agree that DD's careful consideration of options is quite different from me at that age, though in my case I was so much better at languages than anything else I really didn't need to think for long about my first two A level choices.

Atia if you are happy to PM me, I would also be interested to know where your DD is studying.

Also interested to hear from anyone whose DC have used French/German for a degree that wasn't a language degree.

Sorry, that should say French and Spanish! Thinking back to my own language subjects rather than DD's!

By the way, should have said : if it is really all about earnings , don't knock languages. The Institute for Fiscal Studies found that median earnings five years after graduation show languages graduates up there with law and computer science. Languages are sixth in the table of earnings.

(I did German A level and a law degree if that helps..... and although I can still understand German very well I have not actually used it. I suspect if I ever moved to Germany it would come back. I was reading some German yesterday. It's a pity that even with recent German clients everyone spoke in English).

What about doing English Language A level with the view of doing a language studies degree? This will include one or more language with Linguistics etc

She should probably try to work backwards from possible careers first however as English lang is not always as useful as literature so sometimes best avoided
russellgroup.ac.uk/for-students/school-and-college-in-the-uk/subject-choices-at-school-and-college/

The main thing to think about when considering an MFL degree is that it’s only a minority who actually use their languages at work. Dd did MFL and only one of her friends is using his languages, as a teacher. During holidays a few tried translating but absolutely hated it - it’s all about computer programs now. The rest have an amazing variety of careers because they are well educated and employable young people.

You can, of course, look for a job that requires languages but they often want other skills as well. The reason MFL grads can do well is their ability to learn/acquire a lot of transferable skills. Therefore when looking at MFL degrees it should never be assumed that language acquisition is the most important element. It’s not. The best employers will recruit the best all round students and that will include those who have studied literature. There is a reason why Oxford and Cambridge MFL grads are sought after. They have the language skills and research skills, and essay skills and have covered all aspects of an MFL degree, not just language.

Therefore OP, your Dd is misguided in trying to ditch literature. (She is also very young to have such a closed mind). When grads are competing for the best jobs, her languages will not get her very far if other components are not present. University rankings and course rankings count. Cherry picking the “easy” and less challenging options on your degree is seen as a bit lightweight and doesn’t lead to the best money (if that is what is driving her). Look at employment rates to check which universities are best. I suspect you will see it is traditional courses and universities leading the way. There is a good reason for that!

Science degrees with a year abroad work well. Particularly engineering. Plenty of money for the right person in that profession. Don’t expect a language to help though. It would be a fantastic learning experience however. I also don’t think your DD should be totally driven by money. You do have to enjoy what you are doing.

If she is thinking about a law degree then a solid essay subject (maybe history or RS) will be the best foundation. If she doesn't like these subjects she might not like Law either.

Why would a 'solid essay subject' be best George? I'm not sure that's correct. It's true that it's standard to do those at A level prior to a law degree but that's not the same as being 'the best'. You need to be pithy and logical to do law well, not waffle in an evenly balanced way with a sprinkling of literary flourish. Sciences are an excellent basis for that, arguably better than 'solid essay subjects'. You get asked to solve problems in a law degree more frequently than you get asked to write essays in any event, never mind afterwards.

If your DD is only Y10 OP, how has she done literature within her GCSE language curriculum sufficient to know she won't like it? I wish DD4 (Y11) was doing some literature - any - but she's not, as far as I know.

Of course, the other angle is not doing a law degree at all but doing what you are good at and then doing the GDL. MFL or Science won’t make much difference regarding future employment (it could if science leads to a particular specialism) but quality of course and university will.

You get asked to solve problems in a law degree more frequently than you get asked to write essays

Not when I did mine you didn't. I am quite old though.

We're probably a similar sort of age age. My law degree tutorials were significantly more problem based than essay based. My two DDs found the same, both graduated within the past few years.

I'm wondering why you think solid essay subjects are required - isn't that just based on the fact that almost all students applying for law do in fact do English, History, RE etc? DD4 is thinking of law too and has had to explain to two different senior teachers why she wants to do chemistry as one of her subjects if she's thinking of law. They got the point, after it was explained :)

age age?!

I think it's a throwback to the old days of the bright ones following a 'respectable profession'. When I was at school if you did Latin, history, English etc you did law and if you did sciences you did medicine. Hardly anyone mixed and matched subjects either - so maths and MFL were not a normal combo. this was a v traditional school and it was just an unwritten rule.

But I can't see it mattering at all what A Levels you have to pursue law. A good mix would be ideal.

But what is clear is OP's DD likes and enjoys languages .

Your DC not having done any lit (English) by year 11 is really unusual by the way!

Oh, sorry , misread that as English language : you obviously mean MFL. That's why it comes as such a shock at A level ....

Yes I meant MFL! The subjects you do at A level for law can hinder or help to a marked degree Piggy, even if they're not mandatory entrance requirements.