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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Original poster

At university level shouldn't they get experts??

33 replies

nevereverever83 · 13/10/2017 18:43

Nearly posted this in AIBU but thought i'd get more careful and reasonable responses here... but my gut reaction is one of mild outrage!

My neice has just started her third (final) year at top 10 uni for her subject as has been assigned a supervisor for her dissertation project. All of her colleagues in the same subject have been appointed supervisors who are proper academics, some are proper Professors or even the Head of Department, but my neice is the only one in her year/subject who has been given a PhD student and she has never met or heard of this person before. Apparently the PhD student's research is closely related to what my neice wants write about in her dissertation (she only has a very vague idea at the moment) and nobody else in the department works on precisely that topic, but she says there are lots of other members of SENIOR and experienced staff who work on things that are quite close, and she even suggested a couple of them as potential supervisors for her dissertation.

Given that she's paying £9000 a year for this and this is her final year and most important piece of work, shouldn't she get to be supervised by a proper academic, not another student? I know sometimes lower level classes are taught by PhD students (and that's how they learn to teach) but a dissertation is such a big deal?

OP posts:

TashieWoo · 13/10/2017 18:50

When I was doing my PhD I would have never supervised dissertation students and I don’t know of any PhD students (even the best, most well-connected and popular ones) who have. This was in a less prestigious university.

But I understand that your niece is being supervised by a PhD student if she wants to research a more niche area. It would make sense that the PhD student is supervising alongside a more senior academic, perhaps their own supervisor, are you sure this isn’t the case?

I think your niece should be able to question this if she only has the PhD student to go to. But at the same time this could be a good opportunity as the PhD student is likely to be more enthusiastic and engaged, and perhaps spare more time to spend with your niece during supervision meetings than a senior academic with more dissertation students to supervise. Also, if the PhD student is near completion they could have published papers etc. They wouldn’t choose just any PhD student to supervise a dissertation.

Best of luck to your niece in her final year.

FAkenameforthis · 13/10/2017 18:54

I think this is one of those things that she needs to take up with her department if she has an issue with it.

user918273645 · 13/10/2017 18:55

Immediately after graduating a PhD student would be qualified to become a lecturer, which you denote as a "proper academic". A few months before graduating a PhD student would be qualified to supervise a dissertation - and indeed may well have more time/enthusiasm to spend on it than a lecturer or professor who has many other teaching duties.

Most UK universities would not allow a PhD student to be the official supervisor for fear of reactions such as yours.

FWIW my final year project at Oxbridge was supervised almost entirely by a PhD student. I graduated at the top of my year.

BTW a head of department is no more experienced at teaching than anybody else and usually does not teach (much) in compensation for the large amount of time spent on administration and management.

user918273645 · 13/10/2017 18:56

And fwiw a PhD student close to graduation is an expert in their research area. Their level of knowledge is not remotely comparable to that of a final year undergraduate - it would be like comparing somebody about to complete a degree with an A level student.

Lunde · 13/10/2017 19:06

A doctoral candidate is an academic and will have between 5 and 10 years of University study behind them. The question is whether your niece want expert supervision or a higher status supervisor who may only be able to make vague suggestions as they are not an expert in the field.

PhD students can often be the expert on a particular issue and will often be able to help a student more - I would not see this as a worse solution at all. We often get more complaints about the professors who only fly in to teach for a few days a month.

bigbluedustbin · 13/10/2017 19:12

It’s not uncommon or bad. A PhD student close to graduating will often be the most knowledgeable about their project area.

When I was a PhD student I supervised several final year dissertation students. They all got excellent dissertations and were happy with the work they were able to do.

TooDamnSarky · 13/10/2017 19:18

We allow PhD students to manage the day-to-day aspects of student project supervision but would always have an academic having overall responsibility for ensuring that the student was appropriately supervised. This works well and students often gets a lot more supervisor time than when supervised by a 'big name'.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/10/2017 20:26

I think it is a good thing.

I was supervised for two undergraduate dissertations, one with a very senior academic and the other with a doctoral student. Both are now my colleagues. The senior academic is now a professor and the doctoral student is now a senior lecturer. It's been useful to me to know both of them, and they are both experts in their field.

I've also asked PhD student colleagues to supervise my students, because I know them and I know how excellent their work and teaching is. There's a PhD student I know at the moment, who has already published more than some junior academics. I strongly suspect she will become a highly respected person in her field as she's brilliant, and she is also a really conscientious teacher who is at the cutting edge of pedagogic work.

I wouldn't be quick to assume a PhD student would be a bad supervisor, or inexpert.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/10/2017 20:28

Oh, and two months after I graduated from my PhD I supervised a final-year dissertation student who graduated with an excellent first, did a MA and is now doing a PhD, and who still asks me to write her references. There is nothing I learned in two months that differentiates me then from a PhD candidate, and if I ever worried whether or not I was doing a good enough job, this student would reassure me, because she's much brighter than me and has still been kind enough to keep telling me how much she valued working with me.

goodbyestranger · 13/10/2017 20:43

I would have no problem with this at all. My DC have been supervised by academics of varying stages from very, very eminent to PhD. I've never given it a second thought. The PhD students are often extremely enthusiastic and engaged, which counts for a lot.

lljkk · 13/10/2017 21:03

Neither of you know about what admin workload the other potential academic supervisors are already carrying.

Impostress99 · 13/10/2017 21:19

I am a "proper" academic and I am appalled at the OP's naivety about what a "proper" academic is. It's this idea that ranks designate expertise in a specific topic and that you can buy this with money.

My own PhD student X is more of an expert in their topic than I ever was or will be and I am so proud of her.

A final year PhD candidate is potentially months away from becoming a rank holding lecturer - and has the sharpened expertise, time and humility to supervise a dissertation. It's an undergrad dissertation for heavens sake - sorry - it really is not at all a big deal if you compare it with the mammoth task that a PhD thesis is which needs to be a unique and original contribution to knowledge.

I don't know what else to say to you OP except that evidently you are neither an academic nor do you fully grasp academic work.

As for your niece, it beggars belief that this may be what undergrads these days think. That money buys them time with supposed experts called professors. Good luck with the starry professor who may not give them the time of day nor have an iota of expertise in their field.

I have just sent my latest journal article to a PhD student for his comments - which I shall value and incorporate with all humility because he knows more on that specific topic than me- a "proper academic"

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/10/2017 21:23

Oh, come on!

No, the OP isn't an academic and doesn't understand what academics do - but she is asking the question on a chat forum. She's misguided, but ... well, I am sure I sometimes make daft suppositions about other people's work. Don't we all?

I think you're going a bit far.

Ta1kinPeece · 13/10/2017 21:25

My third year supervisor was a PhD student
in fact he never finished his PhD
but he's still in the department
and I'd value his word on that narrow topic over ANY of the Profs.

I had my 30 year meet up not long back.
A couple of my cohort are now profs themselves
and they still respect and value his judgement

because letters are not everything

tigerdriverII · 13/10/2017 21:34

What was promised to her when she started the course? Was any promise made about the status of her tutors? If the course description is that it would be taught by, say, “world leading academics” then she could have legitimate grounds for complaint.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/10/2017 21:35

But a PhD student could be world leading?

isawahatonce · 13/10/2017 21:36

Obviously, I don't know the people in question so can't say how well it would go but I had a PhD student actually lecturing one of my modules in my second year of university and he was the best lecturer I ever had. I doubt they would have asked the PhD student to do it unless they were confident of this person's abilities? and if the research is very similar, it could end up working out for the best? Obviously I don't know shit but I'd hold off on being outraged for a bit.

Ta1kinPeece · 13/10/2017 21:40

Lrd
The guy I'm thinking of IS the world expert on his topic
he's just too laid back to ever finish his PhD (35 years at the last count!!)

I last chatted to him about two years ago and his enthusiasm, expertise and love of the topic was still inspiring

Lucky are the students that get him as supervisor despite him only having an MSc

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/10/2017 21:48

talkin, sorry, I wasn't clear but I was responding to tiger's post immediately before mine, not to yours!

I was agreeing with you that a PhD student could be a world-leading expert in their very specific field.

CuckooClockChimes · 13/10/2017 21:49

As another poster says, she needs to take this up with her department

user918273645 · 13/10/2017 21:50

OP except that evidently you are neither an academic nor do you fully grasp academic work.

But we, as academics, should not expect the general public to know about academia. We should politely and pleasantly explain to anyone how academic research works and how academic departments function. (Such as - heads of departments are not the best for dissertation supervision as this is not the criterion used for becoming head of department and heads of department are incredibly busy. PhD students can indeed be world leaders in academic research.)

On the other hand: I don't really believe that somebody who didn't ever graduate can be a world leader. It is possible to graduate with a PhD based on published papers (i.e. no thesis). If he was that great, he would have done this. And if you haven't written published, peer-reviewed work, then, with all respect, you are not a world expert.

user918273645 · 13/10/2017 21:52

(I mean if your work hasn't been published over a long period. In areas such as the humanities your thesis could indeed be world leading even if it hasn't yet appeared in the form of a book or book chapters.)

OlennasWimple · 13/10/2017 21:54

Far better to have an expert who is working towards their PhD than a professor with little knowledge and no real interest in the niche area

Ta1kinPeece · 13/10/2017 21:55

LRD

User
Fair point - and i suspect he's been instrumental in shed loads of published papers (cos I know who the departmental profs are)
but he's got no ambition.

He's the equivalent of a "QBE" in accountancy firms - no letters but some of the most valuable team members

Letters are not everything

CAAKE · 13/10/2017 21:57

I’m classed as a “proper” academic and I don’t have a PhD! We are a niche institution with staff who are experts in our profession. We only have 1 3/4 PhDs out of 11 lecturing academics.

A good dissertation tutor is someone who knows the field and knows how to guide and shape an extended piece of writing so that it meets the assessment criteria. Tell your DN to go for coffee with her supervisor to chat through her ideas. She’ll soon know if it’s a relationship that will work or otherwise.

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