Is there any point studying Law other than LNAT universities ?

[Historyismylife]

Our DD has visited several universities some that require LNAT and some that don't. We have split visits between her dad and me so whilst she has seen them all, we can't necessarily compare what we haven't seen. For the first time, we jointly visited Reading Uni last Saturday and I found it really refreshing - there were no airs and graces, the lecturers were engaging, campus was welcoming. DD liked it too. It felt like they recognised that new students are not the finished article but could become so in their time there.

My DH liked it too but was bit disappointed with the law firms they have links with - not the big names you see at Bristol, Nottingham, Oxford, etc.

Most of the places she has looked at are AAA or above so whilst entry requirements are similiar some require LNAT and some don't. Any opinions on how this makes a difference once you hit the real world after uni - you can probably tell I'm not a lawyer, both DH and I have science degrees but work in finance so DD is bucking our family trend.

There is only eight unis that require lnat, the rest do not, Oxford is one, Cambridge is not, Birmingham is, but as said my daughter failed hers and is happily on her final year there, so I would dispute its importance"

In addition there is a lot of discussion on lnat and it’s use, due to the fact so few unis request it, and the ones that do seem to not set much store by it. If you google yes, lots of discussion. On the skillset required for it.

As for how onerous the application process is, I thought it very onerous, it’s an extensive application, then an online test, then a telephone video interview, then an interview, then an assessment centre then a further one or two interviews, I think it’s a lot and I would say the initial application form takes several hours if done correctly. Couple this with many applications, and it cannot be a cut an paste job and to me thats onerous. These kids spend a huge amount of time doing these applications.

Your daughter is very lucky indeed if she got two vac placements, after just sitting a couple of tests and was then offered a training contract in her second year, that’s genuinely as rare as hens teeth and nigh on unheard of. She really must be a super star and you should be very proud of her. Mine is not so lucky and currently working her arse off. She’s even doing personal care work in a care home during her holidays to ensure she has stuff on her cv.

If Birmingham use the Lnat but half the students drop out after first year (I too find this unbelievable) then it would suggest it's not a very effective test

I haven't googled Bluntness I just know how the LNAT works in two unis in particular which do ask for it, and at both it rates highly in admissions.

Apologies, she did interviews for the vac schemes too I think but at least one, possibly two of the firms came to interview at uni rather than the students having to go down to London. All very civilised. She got offered a third one too, which she declined. The usual time to apply is in the second year, with vac schemes being done in the long vacation and offers of Training Contracts in early Sept. She wasn't out of the ordinary at all at her uni which is not to say I'm not proud of her, I'm proud of all my DC :)

Oxford uses the LNAT too 2014newme and have one of the lowest drop out rates going, which would suggest it's a highly effective test.

Except that there's some dodgy logic flying about here :)

I was meaning in relation to Birmingham specifically if those drop out rates are correct

I know you were 2014newme. Just saying the opposite conclusion could be drawn about the LNAT based on the Oxford model. But it's not about the LNAT, obv.

Although I just don't buy the 200/400 thing. I think Bluntness must be mistaken, it's too incredible.

My understanding from my daughter was two hundred made it back to the second year and there is now 200 in her year.

It doesn’t mean they drop out, it could mean they failed and as such did not make it to second year, or they decided to switch courses, or indeed they dropped out of uni, but I’d guess this was the minority, I’d guess far more simoly decided law wasn’t for them or they failed.

Still doesn't make sense

I'll rephrase it for you @goodbyestranger.
If, in the case of Birmingham, the Lnat is used as part of the course selection but 50% of students don't progress to the 2nd year, then the test in this particular case would not seem to be effective in selecting those that will progress successfully to the 2nd year.

Hth

I might have to search Birmingham stats and ask them at Open Day this weekend - will make sure my DD is nowhere in sight at the time.

No it smacks of something seriously awry in the faulty, if true. Any course where 200/400 fail or drop out should be shut down.

2014newme I know exactly what you meant! I'm not sure why you can't see that all I did was apply the same logic to Oxford to produce the opposite conclusion! Same test, different uni, opposite conclusion! It's not hard....

I haven't drawn any conclusions other than Lnat would not seem to be a predictor of success on the course at Birmingham if those previous stats are true. I don't think that any other extrapolation can be made from that about any other universities. It seems specifically to Birmingham

Just found this for anyone interested www.chambersstudent.co.uk/law-schools/the-solicitors-qualifying-examination

2014newme this is too heavy. I made a light comment. But since you seem dogged: of course if you apply that logic to Birmingham re the LNAT you can (probably should) apply it to other LNAT unis too. But it was only light; this has nothing to do with the LNAT, even if the figures are correct.

Good luck to your dd op hope she gets the uni place and training contract she wants

I honestly don’t think it’s that unusual, the drop out rate for law, after the first year, across the uk unis sits between 20 and 40 percent and has done for a long time. Her 400/200 might not be exact, but I’d say it’s within thr national average of between 20-40 percent and at the high end. Once past the first year it drops hugely.

As for lnat, as said my daughter got in whilst failing it, hence why I am unsure how much precedence the last remaining eight unis who request it, set against it,,,if that makes sense. They ask for it, but it doesn’t seem to be critical and the fact only eight remaining unis still now request it says a lot..

I meant seriously awry in the faculty, not faulty :)

These are the only unis that want lnat now, all others inc Cambridge have dropped it.

University of Birmingham
University of Bristol
Durham University
University of Glasgow
King's College London
University of Nottingham
University of Oxford
University College London

LNAT is used by those unis as an additional tool because most of their applicants will be applying with A*AA and good personal statements showing super curricular and extra curricular in abundance so it is another way they can separate very similar applications.

There is a multiple choice sections which test basically spped of reading and understanding from speed reading and an essay section.

It is not a law exam. For example one of the essay questions was about the TV show Big Brother last year. It will just show how well the candidate is able to write a debate style essay and how they process their thoughts.

As there needs to be some way of whittling down the thousands of applications saying that applicants need A*AA plus a score of over x makes it easier to weed some out into the no pile.

OP - I won't take offence that you/your daughter seems to think barristers are a higher class of lawyers than solicitors but just so she knows - they are not, just different. If she enjoys advocacy she can actually nowadays be a solicitor advocate.

Whereabouts in the country do you live by the way?

Excuse my typos!!!

Allthebest, excused, thank you no offence intended.

Bluntness a 50% attrition rate for first year of law at Birmingham shocked me so I checked on Unistats. That gives 5% or 8% if you include those who are taking a break. Therefore those who make the grades usually stay the course.
unistats.direct.gov.uk/subjects/study/10006840FT-K0156/ReturnTo/

That seems reasonable sendsummer whereas 50% would send massive alarm bells ringing as to the real cause, especially in a subject with a huge cohort.