Chancellor set to slash tuition fees by £5000 !!!!!1

[boys3]

screams the front page of the Sunday Times, closely followed by:

Outrage as universities it on cash mountain which I suppose does make a change from the usual vice-chancellor remuneration packages headlines

Not exactly sure who is outraged beyond Jo Johnson and Andrew Adonis mind. Or quite why multi million pound businesses would not consider it prudent to have financial reserves

The story article goes out to mention that actually this would a £5k reduction over the three years, not per year.

frustration is then noted that some universities are not offering students value for money because obviously higher education should be commoditised

Also mentioned possibility of repayment threshold being increased to £25k - they'll be a sub-editor seeking new employment today for failing to edit that out presumably. Sounds a bit too sensible.

The article also mentions the Treasury is considering options to bring in fee levels, either for various subjects or according to graduate employment rates

It then gives it own guide, out next week, a plug, and revisits that old favorite about graduate salaries. Talks about the RG but names just three who provide degrees -comp sci, economics, and engineering- where grads have starting salaries up to £45k six months after leaving. Presumably not every grad in those subjects from Imperial, Cambridge, and LSE with those subjects achieves that. The article conveniently overlooks that.

I guess we'll also have to wait and see what the autumm Budget actually brings.

Net result of cutting fees for universities:

• universities have to make 15-20% of their staff redundant
• top academics leave the country in greater numbers
• academics are pressured to take pay cuts in return for keeping their jobs
• capital investment from surpluses into buildings and equipment is stopped.
• universities will massively increase the price of accommodation to cover losses

Net result for students:

• worse education
• same percentage of income paid back
• most will still never pay back all their loans
• maintenance loans will remain inadequate to cover costs (see increased accommodation costs above)

Nowhere in the article does it explain that the current 9k is not covering the costs of delivering the courses in most disciplines. There is a small subsidy from the government for STEM courses but we rely on international students to break even - and of course those numbers are expected to drop further due to Brexit, tightening of immigration, messages given out that foreign students are not welcome.

quite agree user. My involvement in HE is only from a parental perspective so I've no axe to grind.

Reduction in tuition fees sounds great as a headline, however as you imply where does the shortfall in funding come from / how would it be covered? Or is this the start of a move to reduce the numbers going to Uni, which would presumably see some institutions disappearing completely.

So since the funding has been cut and fees brought in, universities have been told that they need to be self-sustaining, which involves making 5% surplus each year
[See www.hefce.ac.uk/funding/finsustain/pubs/mtg/ :

1. Why are surpluses necessary and why do they need to

increase? 17. Simply put, the demands on institutions’ finances are increasing. Surpluses are needed:  to generate funds for re-investment in the institution in response to rising student expectations and increasing national and international competition;  to finance higher operating and borrowing costs;  to foster confidence among others to continue to invest in the sector, including banks and other providers; and  to meet unforeseen adverse circumstances.]

And now they've started generating that surplus (mostly not reaching 5%!) they're being told they're sitting on mountains of money and they've got to spend it? Jesus Christ.

Humanities will be fucked if this happens.

It won't even make any difference to students, it's still shed loads of debt at a ridiculous interest rate.

One of the main areas of student poverty is coming from the fact that many can't even get enough student loan to cover their accommodation costs meaning that some universities are still out of reach for some students.

Humanities will be fucked if this happens.

^^ This. If it's true (and nothing's guaranteed until the Autumn statement, and even not then) several HEIs will go bust and several more will merge. A reduction of this type, without a balancing increase in teaching grant, represents around an average 15% cut in income across the sector. More for places like SOAS who don't teach any sciences.

One of the main reasons that the loans scheme isn't working is thousands of students are borrowing, but the statement that every good degree leads to a decent salary is a lie. So many end up in low wage jobs with minimal opportunity for progression or large bonuses that they will never pay back the loan. The government is lying to itself as well as students.

DD's maintenance loan almost covered her rent, without bills. So nothing left for bills, food or living expenses in general.

Yes but a title like looks good. It helps TM looking like she does care for the younger generations (does he heck).

Or is this the start of a move to reduce the numbers going to Uni, which would presumably see some institutions disappearing completely.

I actually don't have issues with number caps being re-introduced. although I agree that this could see institutions at the lower end failing/having to make very large cuts in staff numbers.

The current system of no caps encourages institutions to significantly over-recruit in popular subjects such as law - to the extent that many graduates simply won't be able to find training contracts - while some subjects that are absolutely crucial for our economy (many STEM areas) are under-recruiting.

I think too many students are going to university, so universities are proving a lot of courses that shouldn't really be degree level. Some shrinking wouldn't be a bad thing.

I don't think any changes, including Brexit, should affect foreign students (and their financial contributions). EU students pay local fees. If they go, they won't necessarily be missed, but if they still want an English language education in a world class institution, they will put more money into the pot.

EU students most certainly will be missed. And they won't be paying local fees post Brexit. They'll be paying full cost fees same as all other overseas students.

I don't think any changes, including Brexit, should affect foreign students.

You don't think the Brexit related attitudes towards immigrants are related at all to international students wanting to study here? Seriously?

Some shrinking wouldn't be a bad thing.

But this is not what is proposed here: this is a uniform cut that would hit Oxbridge as much as lower tier institutions. Everybody would have to cut staff/salaries.

If the amount of income coming in from Home students is going to decrease, universities will either try to recruit more overseas students, or will hike their fees up yet further. I suspect they would also look at hiking postgraduate fees for everyone. If they can't do that they will have to cut jobs - and I'd be surprised if many institutions can do it, because we're already acting very aggressively to recruit international students and there's probably not much more to give.

But headlines saying that university funding will be cut are not nearly so electorate-friendly, unfortunately. I'm no fan of student fees, but there needs to be a proper look at the funding model, as happened with the Dearing and Browne reports, rather than funding cuts without any consideration of how that will impact the sector, both staff and students.

Gannet123, I would be surprised if any universities outside Oxbridge could absorb a 1.5k cut to home fees without cutting staff.

As you say, universities that can get many international students are already doing so. London/Oxbridge have obvious advantage in attracting international students but could UCL (for example) really take so many more international students to offset the home fee decrease?

It seems really unlikely that universities outside the SE like Durham, Exeter, Bristol, Warwick could increase international students enough to offset the cut in undergraduate home funding.

for some bizarre reason I'm working through the weekend papers in reverse chronological order.

The Graun www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/15/writing-off-student-debt-cheaper-than-claimed-says-ifs

and quotes, "as little as £10 billion" for writing of existing student loans.

The FT

www.ft.com/content/e7591a2a-9a06-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b

writing off student debt would cost £60 billion, says IFS

Both use as their source the same IFS report www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9738

This makes clear that this is for debt since 2012, and that the difference between £10bn and £60bn is largely due to timing, and whether a pre-2012 type fee is maintained - eg is it all written off or is it to write off the difference between the 2012 increase against the previous base. Personally I think some form of contribution for tuition is reasonable - but around the £3k rather than £9k mark

That said these articles do not address how university should be funded overall. As those working in the sector have posted above this is a much more fundamental issue. So as a parent bringing fees down looks great but has to be hand in hand with addressing the funding the gap then created, or funding less but being very clear on what the consequences of that are.

And as kitten pointed out living costs is a whole other issue for students / parents to still contend with.