Getting into Oxbridge

[PinkPeppers]

Can someone explained to me what is needed to get into Oxford/Cambridge?
Dc1 is decided this is what he wants to aim for (good for him to aim high - I wont stop him from doing that). He is only in Y8 so plenty of time to change his mind too.

However, Im not british and I havent gone through the system so have little idea on how things are actually working.
In particular, im not sure about what is needed. Obviously very good A levels in your subjects (maths/science for dc1). But do you also need a very good GCSE and/or a high number of GCSE with a level 8/9 (A/A*)?
Does doing more GCSE than you have to making any difference?

I know that you need to be able to talk about your subject and be hapy to deal with questions where you didn't know the answer etc...
But what else can be playing in your favour? Ive read for example very conflicting advise of having the right sort of experience/voluntary work etc... (some saying its essential, some not).

Im well aware that he might never get there and might change his mind. But atm, this is the one thing that is helping him focus on his studies and the one thing that makes him want to do well (as well as he can do rather than coasting if that).
So any advice on what would help him and what would make a difference is welcome! and if he changes his mind, he will at least have learnt the power of focusing your mind on something you real;l'y care about

I wonder how 'recent'?

It's really, quite seriously considered bad practice. Choice of college is not supposed to advantage or disadvantage any candidate, and you can see why asking that question would make it seem that choice of college did have something to do with it.

I don't follow what you're asking about applying with lower grades? You don't see what would be the case?

Btw, I'm interviewing with a different college next year, and my training for it was centralised and run by people from several different colleges, so I am fairly sure of what's meant to be current protocol. I accept it's impossible to know whether or not some interviewers still ask, but they shouldn't, and if they do, they shouldn't really be putting any weight on the answer that'd give that candidate a better chance at that college than another.

Thanks LRD for the slightly patronising response. Why ask "how recent"? and make the comment about not understanding the point about the grades?
If you'd read my post, I didn't state that I thought it was a good question. Just that it had been asked repeatedly. Most recently in December 2016 to two pupils who were asked this if you want an exact date.
And if you had read my post, I stated the reasons why that would be the case but with 75% of candidates normally interviewed from applications, low grades from an average school, with an average amount of applications etc. are not exactly going to be first choice when it comes to interview.
I did know some people who got in with grades such as BBC but this was pretty rare and thanks, I'm fully aware of other circumstances but this isn't massively helpful for the average applicant who is told repeatedly, that they need A*AA in most cases.
OP, I hope that your son has a subject he's really passionate about and enjoys it. Oxbridge is definitely not the end all and be all and most people there are pretty normal and friendly.

It wasn't meant to be patronising. I'm sorry!

I asked how recent, because things might have changed in recent years.

I asked about the other point because I didn't understand what you meant.

I still don't really follow what you're getting at. My understanding is that the OP is asking about GCSE grades? And her son has not yet taken them?

So, yes, standard A Level offers might look scary. But who knows - a candidate who in year 8 looks set for perhaps rather lower A levels than needed, could well go on to surprise his teachers and do better than expected. It isn't rare. So it would be wrong to dash his hopes at this early stage.

I think it'd also be wrong for any candidate who wants to go to Oxbridge, to feel they shouldn't apply. The worst they can do is reject you - and that's commonplace. They might accept you. And they might do that even if you're predicted lower grades than their offer.

I'm not sure why that's a strange thing to say. As far as I can see, it is exactly what the admissions offices say.

I got asked nothing that wasn't subject-related bar a token question about one of my more relevant extracurriculars, after which they moved swiftly on. No questions about "why this university", "why this college" etc. They did ask why I wanted to do a degree and I told them the truth - I signed up to an Access course on a whim because I was a bit high, and things had just kind of gone from there We mostly talked about a very specific thing I'd been studying. They didn't give a crap about anything except the subject (thank God). My GCSE grades were shite BTW (with a D in the subject I was applying for - I think they give more latitude to mature students).

OP I've just taken in that you intend to take him to the September Open Day. That's a bad idea probably, since they're not intended for DC this young. The student helpers might very well not take you seriously which your DS could sense which in turn could put him off.

Choice of college is not supposed to advantage or disadvantage any candidate

It's not (usually) about direct questions and the "Well, Uncle Binky went here and he donated the SCR port fund" stuff that used to go on in the old days. It is about having confidence and a clear sense of what you want from your degree that kids from public schools take for granted, but is much harder if you are new to the system. We know that there is still an uneven playing field because we know that only 56% of students at Oxford are from state schools, a proportion that has actually fallen in recent years. I can't believe anyone is seriously arguing that it isn't a good idea for a student to know why s/he has chosen a particular college.

It would be incredibly stupid to get wedded to any particular college given the chance of re-allocation before interview in so many subjects. Going with the flow has great merit.

And of course you could be pooled after interview. Also, in the sciences where you interview at two colleges as standard what do you say then?

No-one is asked about college, it's not an issue.

shiny, I'm seriously arguing that because it's important to encourage more students from State schools, and more students who wouldn't usually think of applying to Oxbridge, to apply.

Every time someone comes along with one of these claims, such as 'ooh, you'll have to be able to say why you want this college!' or 'oh, you need D of E and an extra-curricular interest in early chamber opera,' you discourage some of those people. You make some of those people think that applying to Oxbridge is much more of a closed shop, with far more unspoken rules, than it is.

I wouldn't go into an interview with a pre-prepared speech about why I chose this college. Firstly, because I can't see very many benefits (Dr Smith may be delighted you saw she's interested in early Modern women's writing, but she might feel uneasily as if this is an answer intended to flatter her, or she might simply know she has no plans to teach that paper, that year; no one cares if you're keen to join the choir or go rowing). And secondly, because interviews are short, and time spent on casual chat about the irrelevant stuff is only useful if it settles you down to answer other questions. It's much better to be talking about the subject itself.

You could always email the Admissions Office and check this stuff. It could be different at Oxford from Cambridge (I doubt it's very different). It could all change next year. But at the moment, I'm pretty sure there are no secret rules about college preferences.

Every university, oxbridge included, have websites which give accurate information - I would advise anyone with DCs starting to think about universities to google and read those. MN is useful, and advice from people who either work in unis or have kids who've recently been through the process can help but really, best to get the info at source.

It is very easy to find this information by google - for Cambridge start here: www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/applying - this has many links leading to specific requirements for different courses/colleges.

Fwiw (probably not much), my DD has a camb. Engineering offer - college choice turned out fairly irrelevant as she was 'pooled', her gcses are good but not stellar (6a star 3a 3b, which was only a bit above average for her grammar school) - but she had a demonstrable commitment to her subject and presumably did well in the Cambridge admissions test. Her offer is A stars in physics and further maths, A in maths (some people doing 4 a levels need 3 A stars plus an A, which seems a bit mean!) I think her friend with an offer for maths needs 2A stars and an A plus STEP.

And if she doesn't get those grades, well, her insurance place may in some ways be a better choice for her subject - oxbridge is not the be-all and end-all.

Again I would recommend you don't encourage a focus on place but on subject. By all means take a day trip to Oxford or Cambridge to see the city/University, and obviously take up any opportunity to go to a summer school, but also look at what might be available locally and your local University. Many Universities have links with local schools. Universities and other institutions have public talks etc. We are lucky in that we are in London, so DS used to go along with friends to LSE public lectures from about the age of 16. (Completely unprompted by school, and simply because he was interested.) Others attended talks at different Royal or Chartered institutes.

Worth looking at what might be available if you were planning a trip to London. Not least it meant DS could happily see himself at LSE when he failed to get into Cambridge.

Plus obviously the wealth of internet resource.

Errol, it gets worse. 4As offers are not unknown. Though tougher probably are the 2xA 2xA offers that Cambridge sometimes dishes out for humanities.

Good luck for your DD.

Oxbridge being Oxbridge, though, I can well believe that on the one hand LRD is being told in interview training 'on no account ask about college choice' and on the other there are people who've been interviewing for 20 years and aren't going to change what they ask now.

I don't think there's anything wrong about thinking about what you would say if asked, just because otherwise you might feel wrong-footed, but I don't think there has ever been a time when you were expected to answer the question with a well-thought-out and praiseworthy justification. Even in schools like mine which sent a lot of people to Oxbridge, most people's reason would be something like 'because I liked the architecture' or 'someone from my school came here before' or 'I've heard you have a lot of travel grants' and I can't imagine that's changed. Back when it was commonly asked it was part of the general chit-chat part of the interview, rather than the hardcore 'how would you approach this mathematical problem?' part.

I can absolutely believe that too (and did kinda acknowledge that I was talking about what's meant to happen).

Even in that situation, there wouldn't be anything wrong with saying 'no particular reason' or 'actually I did an open application'.

But, where we came into this was shiny insisting that it is necessary and important to consider this question and provide a pre-prepared answer. This just isn't true, and it's counter-productive, because it makes candidates worry that they have to devote time and energy to getting the 'right' answer.

You also run the risk of candidates saying 'but they never asked me why I chose this college! They must have decided already to reject me!'

Interesting discussion.

Re not taking him to an Open day for 6th form.
Can I ask how he and me (as a parent) can guide him to chose the best subjects for him if he has no idea what what is actually needed to do what he wants?
The way I look at it is that you need to go backwards. If you want to go and study Science at Oxbridge (or any good RG uni) you need As well as
To be able to chose the subjects you will need for A levels, you will need
To be ale to get the right subjects at GCSE, you need tyo chose the rigt one at the end of year 9 (next year for him).

As I said before, I have NO IDEA about what is required, just a feeling.
If at the open day in 6th form, they would not answer those questions (And i do get where you are coming from), then where can you get them?
And no i would not trust the school he is at atm to give the right sort of advice unfortunately.

Back when it was commonly asked it was part of the general chit-chat part of the interview

Chit-chat? Not sure my interviewer had heard of that concept:
'Come in. Sit down. Tell me the difference between an aldehyde and a ketone.'

PinkPeppers far as A-level choices are concerned, that information will be on the university websites.

There is no secret information!

Schools will presumably be able to tell you about what GCSEs you need to do A-levels, though that should be a lot more obvious. Presumably if he is interested in sciences then he will be doing double or triple science and there won't be an issue.

I agree that it isn't really appropriate to have under 16s at uni open days.

I am an Oxbridge college tutor.

This is the Oxford information page for maths. Other subjects will have similar. It's all there!

Maths

There is information about fees and funding too, as well as detailed information on how to apply, course requirements, student profiles, and general course information.

well done you

At Cambridge I would say the interview was almost the most important thing. Good GCSEs and predicted grades at A-level were almost a given. They were interested in how you thought about a subject, and deliberately chose things that you wouldn't have been explicitly taught as part of your course.

The other thing is that it isn't the be all and end all. I don't know why so many people umm and ahh so much about applying to Oxbridge. If you think you might want to go then just apply! You don't have to take a place if you are offered one.

whatsthecomingoverthehill did you read a science subject?

My impression, and DC were at a school where almost everyone applied to Oxbridge, and about 50% got in. For scientists/mathematicians it seemed pretty much about maths/science ability. From observation there seemed to be a pretty strong correlation between what maths set you were in and whether you got a place.

Yes those who were also brilliant musicians, rowers or something seemed to have a bit of an edge over those equally clever kids without the extras, but the emphasis is on "equally".

And inevitably there was a bit of randomness. Hence my emphasis on aiming for top Universities rather than just Oxbridge. We were very surprised that one friend of DS did not get a place, his acheivements whilst at school were extraordinary. But he has absolutely thrived at Imperial and is heading off overseas to do his Masters. I suspect he, like DS though he was not nearly as strong an applicant, has few regrets about not getting a place.

All the information about required A level subjects is on the websites of all the universities. None of this stuff is secret!!! So work backwards - Oh to do Physics I need Maths, Further Maths and Physics A levels. To to FM A level I need a grade 8 in GCSE Maths, to do Physics A Level I need a 7 in GCSE physics or an 8 in GCSE double sciience.

and choose accordingly.

Is it possible that people overthink this? As far as I am concerned the best thing to do is make learning a positive experience, encourage them to find what they love and then help them to develop that passion, encourage them to apply to whichever university (and college) they like the look of and then keep everything crossed, because it is a bit of a lottery