MFL degree and language experience

[bevelino]

Dd is currently on a gap year and has a confirmed university place to study 2 MFL languages. Do universities assume all post A'level students have a similar ability? How are the lectures/seminars arranged where you have near fluent speakers and others who are not?

Are students tested and grouped by ability or are the less fluent students expected to catch up with the more experienced speakers?

At the university my DS is going to those doing two languages major in one and minor in another I think I recall you spend 2 to 2 1/2 terms living in the country you majoring in and 1- 1/2 in the country you're minoring in. They also said you either work as a language assistant with the British Consulate, study at university (this is particularY good for those doing a joint honours degree so for example if my DC did a joint honours in maths and an MFL he could study the other subject abroad or they would approve a job as long as you could demonstrate little English would be spoken.

I think it is unusual for an academic MFL university course to have virtually no literature and certainly is not the case at Oxbridge, Durham, Bristol etc. Students are expected to have analytical skills and this stands them in good stead for broad areas of employment. Many MFL students are not looking to learn 3,4 plus languages so courses that just do this wouldn't suit the more academic young person. In fact where DD went, those without an analytical essay subject at A level struggled n the first year. The interview at Oxford is partly analysis of literature and they analyse the applicant's essay writing skills too. So if you don't want literature, many of the highest camibre universities are off the agenda. So yes, careful analysis of courses is required and what you may want to do afterwards.

My DD converted to law and without analytical skills learned at university this would be extremely difficult. Studying film would be less valuable. Speaking Dutch or Polish would make little difference to her career.

bojorojo , come now. I used to have a job which required languages, and indeed learnt four languages as an adult. There was never a requirement to know any literature. And there are plenty of other careers which seek language skills, perhaps combined with other things like technical expertise or quantitative skills. And since the dawn of time, at least when I was a student, there have been language degrees that focused on aspects like linguistics and left out literature.

Yes, literature might help in being a barrister - though I know successful barristers who have got there via science degrees - but the requirement for literature is not universal.

From open day talks we gleaned that Oxford concentrated mostly on Literature ( they did explicitly say that) beyond language acquisition whereas Durham had a broader scope - history and politics as well as literature for modules. In some other well respected unis this was also the case - a wider range of options. Have to say the Degree at Oxford did sound amazing, my DD however wants to try somewhere else.

My DD hopes to do a joint honours not in another language and is happy to study literature but wants a range of cultural options.
I do agree that if you are not into linguistics, you would need analytical modules to be stimulated. A problem a friend's DD had at a top uni was that it was all about linguistics and modern culture whereas she loved literature and was doing a joint honours with English - hadn't quite read the course description probably.

Bojo I'm talking about it not being compulsory, not not being offered at all. And yes, my dd decided not to apply to Cambridge partly because she knew she wouldn't be able to avoid literature there. She is at a Russell Group uni though, phew

so courses that just do this wouldn't suit the more academic young person - you crack me up when you're being rude

Bojo you speak very authoritatively, are you a university lecturer of MFL?

I would class Leeds as a fairly high calibre university and we had optional literature modules - same with friends at Sheffield, Manchester and Birmingham Universities.

Our compulsory modules were centred around grammar and history/politics/culture.

My analytical skills may have been improved by compulsory literature modules, but I'm pretty happy to be 27 years old, 6 years post-uni, averaging a 75 in my MSc whilst working full-time in Big 4 having experienced living in 3 continents in the past 5 years.

We were surprised to hear at Oxford that nationally , MFL graduates do very well against other graduatesand usually go on to do a complimentary further course.

We are hoping that being a linguist makes you employable.

Manchester was the uni which apparently did not have numerous literature options but many linguistic options. V. Good uni. I understand.

No. Not a lecturer. I merely make the point that the two highest rated universities in this country expect study of literature in an MFL degree. No more or less. Manchester, for what it's worth, told DD to get in touch with them if she was ok in her two MFL A levels. They said not to worry about the other one. This was for their undergrad masters course. You used to be able to do that in 4 years with no year abroad at all. Not all RG universities are the same, are they? Many take students with A levels below their advertised tariff. Oxford and Cambridge don't. Just because people on MN use languages it is not a given that all MFL graduates do. Therefore a broad range of skills is best for the jobs market and MFL isn't that great for graduate employment despite what you may think.

Oxford say MFL graduates statistically do very well and many go on to do masters in buisness/law/internatinal relations etc and the combination is very successful. They spent about 10 mins on this in a 1 hr talk. They were talking nationally not just oxbridge.

Thank you for your posts by the way bojo.

MFL graduates are highly sought after in financial services, particularly where international transactions are taking place.

Manchester is of course a good university but the MFL department is facing cuts supposedly because the students they admit have a lower UCAS tariff in MFL league tables.
www.theguardian.com/education/2017/may/20/alarm-raised-over-modern-languages-cuts-at-manchester-university

I had a glance at the CUG for a few MFLs. It would seem that MFL departments with a literature emphasis do attract higher grade MFL students.

IMO more universities should use the expertise of their MFL departments to offer language acquisition as a built-in extra to other degrees.

Interesting article sendsummer.

What is the CUG? excuse me, if it's obvious.

I understand with new syllabi running this year that Language A levels are meant to take into account that they were marking harshly compared to other subjects and address that. Some reference to this issue in article. Clearly, it has put post 16 potential linguists off if school league tables do less well in Languages

CUG is the complete university guide. You can't look at modern languages as a whole, but looking at French for 2018 ... The top 4 are the very traditional Cam/Durham/Ox/St A, and then #5 is Surrey (which I feel would be frowned upon by bojo lol) and when I clicked through to their website, they say:

"However you choose to study French at Surrey, our approach to your learning will be the same - we emphasise professional skills, practical contemporary language use and knowledge of the cultures and societies where French is spoken." - I haven't looked at modules but emphasis on compulsory literature doesn't seem likely ...

Nice to see that according to the latest French table (I'm not delving further into this!) my dd picked #8 and would never have gone to #1-7 as she'd ruled them out for various reasons. So that seems like a happy result!

But anyway, it all seems to reinforce the advice that you should think about what you want from an MFL degree and then look carefully at the course structure and options. But to not get too hung up on specific modules as they might change with staff turnover.

violets apologies for using abbreviation of CUG and thanks Atia for clarifying.
What is odd about the CUG league tables for MFLs like French is that if sorted by UCAS entry tariff, the rough metric for student calibre, Strathclyde comes up near the top, higher than Edinburgh and Glasgow.
I am sure it is a good university but that still . Just reinforces that these tables should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Do more Scottish students go to Strathclyde, proportionally? Do highers get more UCAS points? I know they should be balanced, but maybe it's a bit skewed?

Atia that makes sense for highers and points especially as the other Scottish universities also are quite high up. However I have n't observed that the same is the case for other subjects so still not sure. Also Strathclyde does n't appear for German at all which makes me think there is some sort of anomaly for French.
Anyway this is drifting quite a way off the OP so I will stop pondering

French is a single MFL and all students taking French at university will have French A level. This is not a good guide to the whole picture of MFL and you are correct, Surrey is not up there in destination universities for the most academic students, but obviously takes teaching French very seriously, so good for them. I have not checked, but I bet they don't want AAA to get on the course though! I suspect they would not care too much what the other A levels are or in what subjects. The quote seems to suggest that they concentrate on translation and language use for business so whether you have other high quality A levels may not matter one jot. Employers may care though.

Also, the list of destinations/further qualifications do not make it clear whether the MFL students are using their languages or not. DD is a Barrister,so 2 years of post grad courses. She has spoken French to a French client once or twice. No-one gives a whatsit that she can speak languages. They care a lot more about other attributes, that she can convert to law, and can demostrate her ability to do the job!

sendsummer - your suggestion that the universities should offer language acquisition to other students is an excellent one and some universities do offer year abroad in say Frence, and the student takes French modules whilst at university ab initio. The big problem is that students are risk averse. They doubt their ability and, let's be honest, do not think language acquistion is easy or desirable. There is little evidence so say people are recruited by major employers because they have a language. They are recruited beause they have the skils the employer wants and they just happen to have a language or two. If anyone thinks it definitely makes you more employable, it is does, if that is what the employer wants. If they are ambivalent and you are not very good in other areas, have no work experience, have not done an internship, not volunteered, etc, having a language will not get you the job. Sorry if that is hard, but it is reality. The French, Germans, Swiss, etc already here can do all of this, with knobs on! So it is best to choose a course with an end result in mind.

The CUG doesn't show combined MFL courses, as I said, so the single languages are the only ones you can look at.

Going into the law, as with many paths, just requires that you're a graduate. The subject doesn't matter. So no, why would they expect your dd to speak French to people? I don't know why you keep going on about how your dd did an MFL degree but doesn't need languages now. How is this helpful to someone trying to choose an MFL degree course? (You seem to not really understand that people do different degrees for different reasons. Most people don't do English degrees because they want to read books for a job.)

Bojoro speaks very, very authoritatively as though she is an expert on MFL degree courses. However her views are her opinions only and seem based simply upon her experience via her daughter.

Of course it is helpful to say that young people need additional skills to add kno their degree! That is how the world works and most people have to think about a career at the end of the degree. I am actually arguing that English degree holders wouldn't just look for book jobs - obviously.

I suggest you look at the destinations of MFL leavers from universities and you will see what I mean. They really do not all go into jobs using languages any more than all Law degree holders practice law. I am sure my opinions are worthless but they are backed up with a degree of fact if any of you care to look at the details provided by the universities regarding MFL destinations - many stress their suitability for a wide range of careers. My DD is obviously one example but I could quote you all her friends..... Those of you whose young people haven't even started the degree perhaps don't understand how students focus on jobs after the degree and indeed during the degree.

Oh, and by the way, I am delighted that young people want to do languages. We need more students doing them or more departments will scale back. So please do the courses whatever you think of me!

DD is a very strong linguist and is just about to start her A levels. She wants to study German (plus either French or a new ab initio language) at university. Does anyone think that employers will still want German speakers after Brexit? I would hope so but am not sure.

I would have thought so. Most popylar ab initio seems to be Russian