Do students land graduate jobs after their degrees?

[bevelino]

Have your dc's landed graduate jobs after university?

I have 4 dd's who will be in higher education at the same time (triplets), 2 of which want to be teachers and I am confident that if they graduate they will get jobs. The other two have no idea about what they want to do and I would be interested to know whether most students eventually find a job for which a degree is needed.

It depends what you mean by 'graduate job'.

I see a lot of jobs advertised this way when really they are no different to my first temp job after uni. I've seen quite a few of my peers get fixated on 'getting a graduate job' and then ended up in what are actually quite shitty jobs.

If you get on a really good scheme, then go for it but they aren't the be all and end all.

I would also say that having no idea what you want to do and hoping you will get on a grad scheme will get you nowhere (I know from experience!). You need to be getting experience during uni.

I had no idea what I wanted to do and still got on a graduate training scheme but it was 25 years ago. Many graduates do jobs that they don't need a degree for. They could have saved themselves years of debt and done the same job on leaving school.

REDEXPAT was BBC training scheme good n lead to permanent employment? Had she done lots of relevant work experience to get it? Sounds great

The BBC scheme is notoriously tough to get onto.

Some do, some don't. Yup, even some maths and physics grads from good, solid universities don't. Some choose not to. Some restrict themselves a bit because of where they want to live. Some want to travel. Some are desperate to and can't find a job. Some get helped into work by people that they, or their parents know. I know this will come as a surprise to many MNers, but allegedly even some arts students get 'graduate' jobs . Some start a job then either find it's not for them and give it up to travel. Some start a job and then find they are made redundant.

Agadoo yes she has done very well but as you would expect from someone who got a first at oxford.

2014 true dat.

Oxford and a first are key attributes for the BBC aren't they? Nearly everyone seems to have been there or Cambridge! So university, course, work experience or internship with intended employer and a strong desire to want a particular job. Also accept that further training and qualifications may be vital. Personality and interview technique are also important. Often the exact details of what is studied in an arts degree are immaterial if you have aced everything else. A 2:1 is largely expected these days though!

My DDs friends who did History, English, Geography, MFL are all in graduate jobs but nearly all have done further courses and saw the first degree as a starting point, not the end game. They all went to Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, Manchester, Warwick, Exeter, etc. All put a lot of effort into enhancing their cvs too. Arts are not a waste of time but don't go to second rate universities. It makes life harder. My DD does not know anyone working in a bar or as a waitress who has a good degree. Having said that, she has a strong desire to succeed and has similar friends!

There is no need to do a year in industry as part of a degree unless you want to. There is no need to be worried about an arts degree. It is a far greater worry to not be flexible about work, not have a top notch cv and not look at opportunities everywhere.

The Milk Round landscape has changed a lot, and inevitably it depends on what you want to do. Economics and science graduates may also struggle alongside arts graduates if they want to stay in their field rather than looking for more general accountancy, banking, civil service, marketing, etc, jobs. Indeed DD, who is going to read medicine, can be confident of getting "a job" but knows that if she wants to specialise or do research she will need to work hard, focus and get the right experience.

A lot of graduate recruiters now seem to recruit mainly through internships, which means that job search can start as early as your first term. I attended a parents welcome event when my son started at University, where the then Director cheerfully said that peer pressure was such that there was no need to worry if your DC were undecided about future careers, they would change over their first year. The second year student taking us around pointed out the careers centre and moaned that you were only allowed three appointments in your first term. Very different from my day when no one even considered visiting the careers office till their third year.

DS followed the crowd, bough an M&S suit so he could attend the regular networking breakfasts run by City employers, and applied, but did not get anywhere. By the second year he had decided that he wanted to work in his field, and not drift into banking or accountancy, and landed a relevant internship, though outside London, which helped clarify what he wants to do. He is staying on for a Masters, and this year only applied to his two preferred employers, one for the third time. He passed the assessment but not well enough to be offered a place. Two of his course mates were offered research jobs with consultancies following summer internships, but apparently jobs are scarce and so more (according to a person writing references) are applying for an extra year of study.

The learning from this is:

1. Your first year results count. They are all an employer has to go on when recruiting for a summer internship at the end of the second year.

1. Landing the internship is hard work. Some will have as many as five stages application form/on line aptitude test/phone interview/assessment centre/final interview. A lot to take on whilst studying, given each employer will have loads of applicants, so you need to make a lot of applications.

1. DS reckoned it was important, if aiming for a more general banking/accountancy employer to attend lots of networking events armed with a good CV.

1. He was not convinced that the University matters if talking about public/third sector employers. He came across candidates from places like Westminster University and Oxford Brooks, alongside those taking Masters at Oxbridge. Some are working hard to improve their diversity and will want to cast the net wide. However there seems to be quite a difference in the academic ground covered by different Universities, and the more technical the job the more important the more important is course content.

1. Soft skills matter a lot, even for more technical jobs. It is worth considering some form of interview training.

1. Because of the time involved in landing an internship there is a choice to be made between degree focus and job application focus. A friend whose son was taking a Masters in chemistry, said this applies even more at that stage. DS only applied to two places this year and will probably only make two next. Instead he plans to get the best degree and Masters possible, and take a year out, probably doing a bit of tutoring or teaching and start applying then.

1. Don't rule out apprenticeships and sandwich degrees. DH comes across a lot of finance industry professionals and has noted a range of University backgrounds from LinkedIn profiles. Read for a finance degree at Bournemouth University, Yorkshire or another place where banks have major back room operations, impress during your year in industry, get your Masters part time from another linked University (Southampton Solent?) and be promoted to Head Office. Once there you will only ever be judged on your performance in job. I know a barrister who made a not dissimilar journey from Middlesex University using access schemes, ability, hard work and determination.

1. Show flexibility. This is not the time to say you don't want to work in London or outside London. Numbers and quality of applicants will vary across the country. Teaching and F1 jobs in medicine are obvious examples, but there will be others.

In short you can make a choice between focusing on your degree or your job search, but the days, when simply having a degree would land you a job, are probably gone.

One thing to note is that Master degrees can be very expensive, especially finance ones. (Both LSE and Imperial have one year courses costing £32,000 before living expenses.) If they are not linked to a first degree they will not be eligible for standard student loans, tough for a student who is doing well on a four year engineering course who wants to either "trade up" to a more prestigious institution or wants a change of scenery.

What a great post, Needmoresleep. The only aspect I would query is that so few Pupil Barristers are recruited now, (450 this year) those not from Russell Group universities are a vanishingly small percentage. It is ludicrously competitive. Finance is a different world where there are many more vacancies. So choose the university and the degree carefully if you want to be a Barrister! I also agree that public sector is less choosy about university and subject. Also, not everyone who gets an internship gets taken on. The final cut could be more choosy! The internship sifts.

I should add that DS is probably influenced by the approach of overseas students. It is desperately hard for them to find an employer willing to both employ and sponsor them. I had a tenant from mainland China who wrote over 300 job applications before finding a fairly mundane job for which she was over qualified. Once in she was able to progress. Ditto I knew an au pair from Eastern Europe who volunteered every weekend for five years before landing the entry level position which has led to a seriously dream job. Both are now in positions that many British graduates would love to have. Sometimes it helps to know in advance how tough it will be.

Borojo, yes not everyone who gets an internship will be taken on, nor will everyone doing an internship want to stay on. (Two weeks Easter internship at Goldman Sachs is enough to put some off investment backing completely!) However I have heard figures from employers where 70% of their recruitment is now through their intern programme. Also with barristers though I don't know much about it, I assume some chambers, perhaps those specialising in criminal work, may see advantage in recruiting bright students from the wrong Universities. Certainly I think it does my friend no harm to be able to communicate with clients perhaps better than had she been the product of a private school/top university.

Don't assume people from private schools cannot talk appropriately to clients - they can. Recruitment stats tends to show that with a Pupil Barrister allowance of, quite often, £1000 a month after the qualifying course costing £19,000 lots of less well off people are truly put off! My point in general was that some careers need very careful planning and unfortunately not all universities are equal! I too have heard recruiting from internship programmes is high.

Another vote for the Internship route here.
DS landed his job offer after a summer interning after his 2nd year. He said then he hadn't realised he could have done shorter stints in 1st year too, and encourages all his younger friends to apply for these.
Having the job offer also meant he wasn't applying for jobs and attending selection panels in his final year like some of his friends. Helped him to nail his First :)

DD didn't intern but did have a lot of work experience, (and a Cambridge degree helped) so also had her job offer secured at the very start of her final year.

My daughters both did 2 years of law school (immediately after non law degrees) and then went into yes graduate jobs as trainee solicitors - you do 2 years as a trainee paid (around £40k in London at good firms) and then your starting salary when you qualify is about £70k. Their brother has not used his degree and has been a postman for 3.5 years which he could have been had he left school at 16 (or 14 for that matter) but he loved it. He's stopped it now and is going travelling probably for a year.

By the way with solicitors you get paid internships of a week or so £500 a week in under graduate summer holidays from which on the whole trainees are recruited - it is very competitive and those good law firms will then pay your two years (or one year if you did a law degree) of law school fees and your board and then your trainee salary for the 2 years you are a trainee working for them and then hopefully they take you on when you qualify as a solicitor. So law is actually one of the easiest jobs for the very poor but extremely bright to get into in terms of finances as you need do no unpaid internships (unlike say fashion or journalism which are both badly paid anyway so best to avoid....)

Janet - where did they do their non-law degrees? What subjects? The top city lawyers turn down thousands of applicants who have been poorly advised about university and which course to take. Even bright students make uninformed choices. It would be remarkable if city lawyers largely recruited from the poor but bright who had gone to the "wrong" university and studies a less than "academic" degree!

There are, surely, a lot more solicitor jobs, beyond those in the City. They may not require tip top academic degrees but will require empathy (family and probate), good communication skills (criminal), and attention to detail (conveyancing).

Discussion of legal careers on MN seems as narrowly focused as discussion of Universities can be. I have had reason to instruct a number of solicitors both professionally and privately over the past decade. I am not sure I would prefer to be a big-firm commercial solicitor in the City rather than, say, a probate specialist in Dorset. The pay may be very different but small firm solicitors often have the edge in terms of approachibility, pragmatism and common sense.

I assumed it was City solicitors as a salary range was quoted. Of course there are huge differences in solicitors as in lots of careers. A problem could be that smaller country firms are unlikely to offer paid internships. They may offer work experience though and this is valuable. Anyone at university should take the opportunity to volunteer or work or be an intern. Or all three if possible! Some people want the bright lights and staying at work until 3am whilst others just don't want this! Understandably.

The paid internships in university holidays are for the big London law firms. Linklaters seems to be £400 a week (and it is a 4 week placement in a summer holiday or a shorter period in other holidays www.linklatersgraduates.co.uk/our-schemes/vacation-schemes )

If you are clever and not well off but have access to the internet you can see when you're 16 which universities are the best ones and where the law firms recruit from. I think about half of those taken on have a law degree and half a different degree.

Needmoresleep your posts on Monday are extremely helpful - thanks!

As far as law goes, you've obviously had a better experience with West Country solicitors than me - on the other hand I've been able to take over myself in one instance where the work was of a hilariously shitty quality, but not everyone could. A second incident went beyond shitty quality to negligence and a third recent case was so self-evidently negligent that a senior partner of one of the largest and most 'prestigious' local firms came round to my house for a meeting to declare full responsibility and 'human error' and we hammered out a deal very amicably, largely because the firm didn't have a leg to stand on. So beware the service in the localities, if you're a punter -
not all lawyers are good.

Provincial law and City law/ the London Bar are completely different beasts. It's not just about 3am finishes at the Magic Circle firms, it's about the type of cases being handled. Also, provincial solicitors/ chambers offer very little finance to help cover the costs of the vocations year/s which is a problem in itself and it's fair to say that many (most?) provincial firms/ chambers attract students from the regional unis - very few students without a connection to eg Exeter or Norwich would tend to go to work there as new graduates without a connection - the cities are far too sleepy. The London Bar is horrendously competitive, as are the City law firms especially the Magic Circle firms which pay enormously well but expect (quite reasonably) extremely hard work in return, with no guarantee of a job after qualification. Janet is right that it's possible to qualify into a City law firm and have all costs covered. Similarly, it's possible to get the (huge) cost of the Bar course covered by a scholarship from one of the Inns and living costs covered by drawing down funds from a pupillage award. But you'd need to have a very, very competitive CV to do either cost free, and the overwhelming majority(as was shown starkly at DD3's Call Night in November) are from Oxford and Cambridge and have multiple starry achievements to their name.

DS has a 2.1 in a proper subject from a redbrick university. He also has a decent amount of work experience. BUT he does not have good A levels (got on his degree via foundation year). Many graduate schemes ask for at least 3Bs so he is out of the running straight away.

Fortunately, after a few months of temping and travelling he has now got a decent job. It's not a graduate scheme, but respectable entry level in a large organisation, so a reasonable outcome.

@LittleCandle event management useless for the real world??? Try telling that to people in Birmingham where the NEC group has an economic impact of over £2.1 billion on the west mids economy.

I actively recruit event management and media studies graduates. I can assure you there is plenty of scope for them in the "real world."

Jeni Russell in The Times today hits the nail on the Head: "chilled out students let the privileged win". She says: "Research consistently shows that parents and students from routine and non skilled backgrounds are not aware of the hierarchy of universities and degree subjects and how critical those will be to their later success in the job market. They are much more likely to choose local universities on the grounds of cost and familiarity, even if they get the grades to go to a more prestigious one". "Students from non professional backgrounds are also far less likely to end up with good jobs on graduating". She suggests Mary Curnock Cook was wrong about being chilled out at university and that schools and universities should be honest about what the job market requires and give compulsory classes on skills, networking, internships and CVs. She says the advantaged already know this but everyone else needs all the advice they can get.

I agree.

I think she wrote a while back in the Times that she had twins at univesrity - I think she said Edinburgh and Durham or Edinburgh and Bristol I have forgotten which so it is obviously topic of the moment in her house I expect too and those are sensible words, not that my children ever listen to mine.

Actually that might have been another Times female columnist who has twins writing about universities a few weeks ago. I muddle them up sometimes

I think it depends on what degree students complete and if they are lucky enough to know the specific area they want to work in then they may be able to get ahead of the curve and apply to placements for summer of their second year.

DD has been very lucky, she is in her 2nd year of a law degree at Cambridge. We are not wealthy so the paid vacation schemes (internships) at London law firms are a big help, her schemes are paying from £350 - £500 per week.

DD has completed her first scheme at Easter and has secured a training contract offer which includes funding her 1 year LPC course after graduation (£15,670) a bursary for living expenses during that year (£8000) and a two year training contract (£45,000/£50,000 per year) She still has as two further schemes to complete during summer so she doesn't have to accept that offer until July.

Absolutely second the comment that first year results do count as she had to submit these when applying for her placements. She spent summer of her first year really researching the type of firms she was interested in working for.

I think there are a lot of graduates that don't get good graduate jobs - I just think you don't hear about them.
I've met several working as health care assistants, TAs (with Oxbridge degree) and working in a gym etc.
I couldn't seem to get my chemistry degree to be of much use either. I tried to get into accountancy, but no joy so I ended up retraining as a nurse.