The Best Medical Schools - 2017

[peteneras]

Not of particular interest to most medic parents in the present admissions cycle which is still ongoing; but for others watching and future potential medics - out now, the 2017 world rankings of the best universities to study Medicine.

This shows what the minimum requirement is and then how they actually shortlist - 2 very different things !

natalierm2707futuredoctorblogs.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/a100-2017-entry-admissions-policies-nrm2707-fdb1.docx

Also, those GCSE results are fine for many Unis. E.g. Southampton don't look at GCSEs only to see you've got them - they chose for interview based on UKCAT. Hope that helps. The info is on the websites but can take a bit of looking - search for selection procedure and it's all their somewhere. As is the type of teaching and when you see a patient. Cambridge helpfully start with 'if you want to see a patient in the first 3 years don't come here'. Fair enough.

@mumsneedwine, would your DD consider sharing that spreadsheet?
Not b/c I want to see what she reckons about where I work... but I would love to show that kind of thing to DD as evidence of what applicants have to do. She sometimes talks about applying for MedSchool but I don't think she realises what an enormous commitment the application process is.

pm me if maybe that's ok. Thx.

Of course she won't mind. She's at work for rest of today (Waitrose are the best - as is my 25% discount 😁). The most important things are get the best GCSEs and some work experience. Lots of hospitals offer some to local children (even GOSH do it but it's hard to be selected). Durham have a really good bit about w/e - that it's more important to work in a caring environment than in a hospital. They recognise not everyone know someone to help them. All I will add though is that courses are changing a lot so worth checking for your year of entry that nothing has changed.

This thread is about the best medical schools in the world, 2017, as determined by a certain entity. You may, or may not, agree with the rankings compiled here by QS - I certainly do not agree with the order of the first dozen places, that’s a personal opinion - but on the whole, I agree the table gives a good general idea of the major medical schools in the world.

The table talks only of medical ‘universities’ but not a word on the teaching hospitals that the individual university associates or affiliates itself to. Good teaching hospitals in a profession like medicine are of fundamental importance! Medical undergraduates are not only taught by university professors alone, that’s just a preliminary to what is to come, the crux, which is the clinical education at a good teaching hospital. Nothing can be more obvious than that. It is in actual hospitals where medical students learn their skills and tools of the trade from top doctors, consultants and specialists. Everything else is frankly, secondary.

As far as the United Kingdom is concerned, London is overwhelmingly blessed with world-class (teaching) hospitals that frankly leaves the rest of the country reeling. The capital is where the world’s ailing presidents, prime ministers, dignitaries, billionaires and their families come to for their medical treatments. They don’t, for example, beat a path to the John Radcliffe Hospital or go scuttling down the M11 towards the Addenbrooke’s Hospital.

When a dying Scottish nurse who contracted a new deadly disease from Africa on her return to the UK - Ebola - it was to a London hospital, not Addenbrookes’s or the John Radcliffe, that she was rushed to on a military plane, a hospital with absolutely no prior knowledge or experience in treating Ebola and yet was ultimately able to save the nurse’s life! This is the product of a good medical school.

How therefore, a university whose teaching hospital(s) that was put on special measures recently by the Care Quality Commission (CQC) can be ranked one of the world’s top three medical schools and half a dozen places above the aforesaid London school/hospital is frankly beyond me.

The converted are always the most devout.

I agree completely with the rankings by the way and I'm also delighted for personal reasons that Glasgow scores a nice big star :)

How therefore, a university whose teaching hospital(s) that was put on special measures recently by the Care Quality Commission (CQC) can be ranked one of the world’s top three medical schools and half a dozen places above the aforesaid London school/hospital is frankly beyond me.

A good hospital doesn't necessarily mean it's good for student experience, and neither is being in special measures a reflection on the teaching standard of medical students.

As a current clinical student in London, speaking from experience, the larger, world-renowned hospitals are some of the worst for teaching and student experience and become very much 'teach yourself Medicine'.

”By contrast one of our GPs did his clinical years in London but undergrad at Cambridge and while, as with OPs friend, his degree cites the London qualification, he only ever refers to Cambridge as his training ground”

Well, frankly he could refer to whatever he likes, the fact remains that Cambridge gave him some theory in medicine but it was London that made him a doctor.

”. . .it was overwhelmingly those who had done less well at undergrad at Oxbridge and were lowest on the med school rankings who had to go to London - there weren't enough clinical places available. . .”

Now, this is a new one to me - lowest on the med school rankings who had to go to London. You make it look as though London is the dumping ground for Oxbridge rejects. I’m afraid Oxbridge undergraduates will still have to apply to London for a place and would still be required to undergo an interview like the rest. It is not exactly a free ride...

And how on earth would a med school be ranked the world’s top three when they don’t even have enough clinical facilities and places to teach and train their own students? And where is their other medical-related faculty - the dental faculty - to be wanting to claim the world’s top spots for Medicine?

They don’t exist, of course.

Oxbridge may be tops for Ancient Norse or History or such like but medicine is another matter. . .

Looking back quickly to some recent and not-so-recent ground-shaking medical discoveries and inventions that shaped the future of mankind, I can see no Oxbridge graduates featuring anywhere:

Edward Jenner: Invented the world’s first vaccine 1796 (smallpox) - St. George’s University of London & St. Andrews University.

Alexander Fleming: Discovered penicillin 1928 - St. Mary’s Hospital Medical School, London & Imperial College.

Christiaan Barnard: Performed world’s first human-to-human heart transplant 1967 - South Africa.

Robert Edwards & Patrick Steptoe: Pioneered IVF and created world’s first ‘test-tube’ baby 1978 - University of Edinburgh & KCL/St. George’s Hospital Medical School, London, respectively.

Even the modern day top UK doctors that you regularly hear about in the news are not from Oxbridge. I’m thinking the likes of Magdi Yacoub (Cairo University - heart specialist) and Robert Winston (University of London - reproductive medicine).

Small wonder Oxbridge students are coming to London and not the other way round. Which reminds me of the 9/11 incident in New York when everyone is trying desperately to come down from the burning building but the poor firemen (bless them) had to go up!

I see Scottish medical schools are producing even better doctors than Oxbridge.

"As a current clinical student in London, speaking from experience, the larger, world-renowned hospitals are some of the worst for teaching and student experience and become very much 'teach yourself Medicine'."

That's not my DS's experience in London who is currently in his sixth and final year. He absolutely and thoroughly enjoyed London and has done superbly well for the past five years, thank you very much!

That's not my DS's experience in London who is currently in his sixth and final year. He absolutely and thoroughly enjoyed London and has done superbly well for the past five years, thank you very much!

I didn't say, or even insinuate, that your son - who I didn't know existed - had done anything other than superbly.

I also love London and have done rather well myself. That doesn't take away from the fact that smaller, peripheral hospitals can be just as good (or better) for teaching than central London centres of excellence. If your son has not had the same experience, that's fine - we are all different.

It just illustrates that 'student experience' as you put it, is different for different individuals. This can be said for every other uni in the UK and indeed in the world. Your original post above gave the impression that only "the larger, world-renowned hospitals [in London] are some of the worst for teaching and student experience" which I countered as not true.

I never claimed otherwise, and 'in my experience' made it quite clear I wasn't necessarily portraying it as absolute fact, but rather a reflection on, erm, my experiences. Which are subjective.

Anyway. I know allocations for FY1 jobs came out earlier this week. I hope your son got what he wanted.

Thank you. I hope you find more enjoyment in your London school and wish you every success in your studies.

All medical school tend to have their own character, suit different students better, and do tend to turn out a certain 'style' of doctors. It is horses for courses really. And 'London' med schools are an insanely diverse bunch... cannot really lump them all in together.

Thank you very much, peteneras! 🍻

It was pointed out already that some of the "medical schools" in the list aren't places that train medical doctors, like Caltech. A place that does not train doctors would not normally be called a "medical school". Caltech does medical engineering. LSHT has a public health grad school. Their inclusion seems like an obvious fault in how the list was complied. Who knows what other faults the list has.

goodbye I asked because I suspected that you were judging Cambridge by Oxford - and libelling past students as a result. At Cambridge you listed your choices in order of preference and were interviewed. As peternas says graduate movers were interviewed for their choice of medical school against new applicants and movers overwhelmingly went to either UCL or Imperial, medical schools not noted as especially easy to get a place. The colleges would have liked to keep more of the people who moved and the London schools were angry about the change. The system has now changed but libels should always be corrected.

The quality of a hospital doesnt necessarily affect the teaching skills. But as I've said before Addenbrookes clinical perfomance was not criticised, it's administration and budgeting skills were a problem. As for all medical schools not all teaching takes place at Addenbrookes, the ease of travelling to hospitals in London was another pull factor for Cambridge graduates considering a move - and something all new applicants need to consider, wherever their medical school is.

There is world leading medical research at Cambridge, whether peternas knows about it or not. Im not interested in trying to list all of it. But I'll quote

"The Nobel Prize was established in accordance with the will of Swede, Alfred Nobel – inventor of dynamite and holder of more than 350 patents. Awarded annually since 1901, the Nobel Prize is the first annual international award to recognise achievements in Physics, Medicine, Chemistry, Peace and Literature. Nobel Prizes have been awarded to members of Cambridge University for significant advances as diverse as the discovery of the structure of DNA, the development of a national income accounting system, the mastery of an epic and narrative psychological art and the discovery of penicillin.

Affiliates of University of Cambridge have received more Nobel Prizes than those of any other institution.

96 affiliates of the University of Cambridge have been awarded the Nobel Prize since 1904.
Affiliates have received Nobel Prizes in every category, 32 in Physics, 26 in Medicine, 22 in Chemistry, 11 in Economics, three in Literature and two in Peace."

Undergraduates do have some contact with patients in the first 3 years but anecdotally it's at a similar (i.e. minimal) level to UCL and Imperial. As an example they have meetings with a pregnant woman during pregnancy and after birth. There are ways for students to increase patient contact but at Oxbridge and two London schools (I know too little about others to comment) there is minimal patient contact at first.

alreadytaken, when did Cambridge stop allowing transfers to other schools for their clinical years?

I only ask because there are people both in my year and the year below (ie transferred in Summer 2016) who completed their pre-clinical years at Cambridge, so I was under the impression they were still allowed to move.

(They very much transferred by choice, FWIW)

We can't afford for DD to go to London - halls are ridiculous. Unfortunately a lot of students heading away from great choices in the capital due to being unaffordable. Very sad that it's not still free like when I went to Uni and poorer kids didn't have to factor in how on earth to afford it.

alreadytaken you're too touchy not sure why no I was basing what I said on what past Cambridge medics have told me - not a single medic either but a fair few. I'm not clear why you should know more than they since I don't believe you trained as a medic at Cambridge? Anyhow, I'm not sure it matters hugely. As I've said a couple of times there would always be some who actually wanted to go to the bright lights. It's a very small deal. But since you gave such a massive reply.... :)

And err well obviously they'd be interviewed!

This is an interesting thread for me as my older DC has just been talking about the QS rankings and my younger one is in his final year of school. A good friend is waiting to hear from Scottish med schools any day now.

The feeling in Scotland about the Scottish med schools seems to be that Dundee is the place to go - time in hospitals from very early on.

One of my DD is studying at a QS top-ten ranked conservatoire - obviously very different from med schools - but she was saying how some factors affect the rankings unfairly. Eg, her conservatoire offers courses in all the performing arts, unlike eg conservatoires which only teach music. This seems to automatically give her conservatoire a higher 'score'. Similarly with measures of employment/post-grad studying.

I'd take the QS rankings with a huge pinch of salt and perhaps set more store by student satisfaction ratings, although obviously these are highly subjective too.

Addenbrooks at Cambridge is smaller than John Radcliffe / Churchill at Oxford so previously more students from Cambridge chose to move to Oxford or London for the clinical years. Oxford students tended to stay put. Now Cambridge students are restricted to Cambridge plus East Anglia (see below) sharing with Norwich medical school clinical attachments.
^Students will also study at a number of Regional Partner NHS Trust hospitals throughout the East of England and in teaching general practices both in Cambridge and the surrounding region. The seven regional partner Trusts are divided into three groups:
South: The Lister Hospital (Stevenage) and Bedford Hospital
North: Peterborough City Hospital, Hinchingbrooke Hospital (Huntingdon) and Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Kings Lynn
East: Ipswich Hospital and West Suffolk Hospital (Bury St Edmunds).^

It is true that for both Oxford and Cambridge graduates London jobs post qualification were and still are very much sought after and are Traditionally at least Oxford qualified doctors aspiring for an academic career often then seek research training back in Oxford although London research institutes such as at UCL, Frances Cricks etc are competing for the best.

Yes and numbers don't work so felicitously that exactly the number who want to leave do so thereby leaving a perfect number of places behind. Oxford also has had less clinical places available than undergrads coming thorough, so the issue is obvious. Not that it matters :)

Goodbye I am not sure of your point.
Cambridge there is no competition now as they all have to stay put. Oxford undergraduates prefer to remain in Oxford for their clinical training years so there was some competing at that stage.
Post qualification there is competition for different rotations in London.