Can you really fit all this on a personal statement? Extra curricular opportunities

[tangleweed]

My DD is in Y11 and we get lots of communications from school about doing things like summer schools, lectures at local universities, exhibitions, Duke of Edinburgh, NCS, books to read, etc, etc which all say 'this will look good on your UCAS personal statement'.

I can see that many of these things might be great experiences, whether for learning skills, developing confidence, increasing knowledge or even just plain interesting or fun! But, not having experienced uni applications for 30+ years, all I can see is that there's quite a limited amount of space on that form, so how would you, for example, use the fact that you've attended 10 public lectures if you don't have space to list them? But, if you can't give details, who is to say you haven't just made up that you've been to various lectures and summer schools? Is there something on the UCAS form asking for evidence of things that you've done?

Sorry if I'm being dense, I suppose I just want to have an idea of how to support DD in choosing what might be helpful to her (& knowing what records to keep of what she's done) but not to get too overwhelmed by trying to take advantage of all the different outreach stuff that seems to be available in Years 11 and 12 in our area (close to London so perhaps more opportunities than in some areas).

It seems to me that a lot of these things are really aimed at giving school students a taster of what their subject is like to study in greater depth, what uni life is like, etc - which is probably all very helpful in ensuring that they make good choices about which subjects and unis to apply to. But it feels like we are expected to make more of it than that and schools (I presume not just DD's school?) can create a frenzy about filling spare time with experiences for the UCAS form.

I am left wondering what kind of things are actually going to be helpful, so I am hoping someone with older DCs might share their knowledge of their DCs actually found useful - whether for the personal statement or for choosing courses, or maybe for other reasons.

Needmore - That's interesting. DS had offers from Oxford and UCL & two others. LSE, rejected out of hand. I wonder if your Ds's PS was not poor but just appealed to LSE - plenty don't. With all the wise hindsight of 2 teenage years since his application , Ds thinks that it would have come across quite clearly, that although he thought the LSE course was interesting, and he would have very much liked to do it, he would not have been a strong enough candidate according to their criteria. They had a different focus than the other universities he applied to. He thinks he was a little naive in applying because he thought it was interesting, rather than thinking about what they wanted. TBF I am not sure his school thought that applying to LSE was great given his strengths and weaknesses , he did anyway, but by and large I am not sure it matters if you get all 5 offers , as long as you get one you are happy with. If you use all 5 places on the form I think, often,
you can accommodate an aspirational choice (aka "punt" )

And just to say Ds was doing a standard academic subject. I do realise there are other courses where the PS is far more important. I speak only of what I (vicariously) know.

Out of interest (probably only mine) he wishes he had applied to Durham instead of LSE.

Needmoresleep - I didn't think to see if there was guidance from the universities themselves - dd is making a list of unis that offer her subject so we can then look and see what they all say.

User147 thanks - it's not a vocational subject so I hope dd will do ok - good to know people are generally getting lots of offers - it all sounds so cutthroat that I am surprised to hear this.

Theonlylivingboy - that is useful to get a teacher's perspective & it makes sense that that is the main thing they would be interested in.

It's a science subject so not considering LSE - thankfully! I feel like I need to go back and make notes on all the answers as there are so many things I wouldn't have thought of - thank you all.

One of Ds's teachers said a PS is like a party - arrive late , leave early. Ie just put in the most salient points to the course.

Good Luck

OP, to be honest if it is a maths heavy science subject, they are probably more interested in evidence of maths ability than in DoE.

A good PS really counts for popular courses who don't interview, or courses where the PS is used to sift before interview. For some reason interviews seem more common for subjects like engineering than for, say, economics.

As well as the guidance from the courses your DD is applying for, you might also look at UCL, LSE, Warwick and Durham, all popular Universities who often sift by PS. Plus this

I was surprised by an early draft of DS' PS. His school was very experienced at helping students achieve places on competitive courses, and the draft looked the examples given by the Sutton Trust (though probably not as good - their examples are a bit scary.) And Basilisk, DS' school seemed to do reasonably well with LSE, less well with some others. With a similar pattern in medicine. Perhaps some of it may be that a school PS style aligns better with some scoring systems than others. By closely framing her PS on guidance issued by her top medical school choice DD seems to have gained a place where the grapevine suggests several very academic girls schools had a 100% rejection rate.

Thanks needmoresleep. It's physics so yes it is maths-heavy. Thanks for all the info - will look at all that carefully. I think I've got a much clearer idea now about thinking about it from the perspective of the universities and narrow it down to the specifics they will be looking for, rather than a general 'how can DD make herself look wonderful in 4000 characters?'

If it's Physics you could leave the PS blank and still get 5 offers from the top 20 universities. Genuinely.

BasiliskStare - I have seen an awful lot of PSs of applicants to LSE. I am not at all convinced that LSE's applications filtering system is as high powered as they like to make out but IME the applicants most likely to get an offer are the ones who provide plenty of evidence of personal (not school led) engagement with their subject.

Bobo , you may will be right & engaging with the subject also counts with the the likes of Oxford ( and other well regarded universities )

My only and somewhat personal point for posting is that LSE is clearly an absolutely fantastic University to go to. Ds was rejected. He thinks he just wasn't good enough at Maths ( He applied for history) - so for e.g. Economics - (at degree level) you don't need an A level in Economics - you need one in maths ) For the course he applied for he thinks he was not qualified enough i.e. it was history with an economic bent. Anyway - I have said enough , but to OP I would just say LSE - fabulous. What a lovely choice.

Sorry Bobo - "well" , not will

From observation and what my DCs tell me of their friends who have been successful for the more competitive physics and maths courses I would agree with titchy that offers depend primarily on ability assessed by predicted and then achieved A level (and for maths STEP grades). Following that what is likely to help most, including for university interviews that test ability and a more realistic view of what the degree course involves, is anything that is an extension of appropriate problem solving skills and a greater depth of understanding of concepts. So for example working through maths and physics challenges / Olympiad type questions and if entered by school achieving well in them. Isaac physics is another possibility.

tangleweed also as you know your DD may already be fairly fixed on physics in year 11 but that can change by the end of year 12 so if there is a possibility that she might develop an interest in engineering type courses or computer science or even chemistry, then broadening her outlook by an outreach course like Headstart would at the least help her cement her choices. Some basic practical laboratory experience would also be great for an insight into what university physics is like but harder to get. Also anything like good talks (could be from the internet) that sparks and develops her enthusiasm for aspects of physics. I don't think any of the above is necessary for a PS or offers but may personally be helpful to her as well as making writing her PS easier (since it still has to be done).

DD is doing a pure science.
Put loads of work into the content of and presentation of her PS
it was clearly ignored by all 5 offers
(4 were in less than 48 hours, the 5th contradicted its contents)

DS also plans to do a pure science I and I suspect his PS will be less complicated

My DS applied for Physics this year after being fixated on Engineering for years. A week's Head start course in the latter helped him to decide.

I wouldn't discount the PS, many of his peer group with the exact subjects/ grades have had rejections from those DS has had offers from.

Keep it based on the subject. DS had two lines at the end on extra curriculars that he would hope to continue at Uni e.g. sport/music. Didn't bother putting DoE in etc

Predicted A level Grades and actual A level grades influence university offers. Personal statement needs to demonstrate a passion for the subject.
A huge proportion of kids will have done Bronze DoE. It's not going to influence your chance of getting an offer !

As for Music, DD has discovered that many universities offer a music bursary ( usually £1,000) to students who have passed grade 8 and can play in university orchestra. She couldn't be arsed to do the exam this year so. Used out in that extra cash.

Only put on extra-curriculars if they can be used to show passion for the subject she wants to study, or to provide evidence for soft skills.

I do think balancing a number of activities and rigorous A levels shows someone who can achieve highly academically and balance their life/workload. If they have achieved a highly level of competence in a musical instrument, they work hard, are not put off by setbacks and have studied it for a long time and not given up. I think music and similar accomplishments do say something about a person. This is someone who will probably thrive at university as opposed to someone who has done nothing extra at all, other than work on A levels. It is sad if some universities do not care about the calibre of the student as a rounded person who can manage the sometimes very heavy workload, especially for science courses.

Sorry not to reply again sooner. Thank you titchy and sendsummer. DDs GCSE predicted grades are 8 for maths & Eng lang, A* for physics and A for everything else apart from B for biology and 6 for Eng lit. Obviously can't just assume she'll sail through this summer and then 6th form continuing to get good grades, but if she does then can she feel fairly confident of getting good offers for physics? Is there any way of finding out how many people apply for each course? From reading university websites you might suspect that most courses are way oversubscribed with A grade students (who are probably entrepreneurs & international athletes in their spare time ), but you also hear that universities are keen to attract more STEM students.

DD is doing an Inspire course this summer, which is run by the same organisation that does Headstart but for Year 10 girls, and then I think they have priority if they apply for Headstart next year, so that is certainly something she'll look at. I will tell her about Isaac Physics too.

Travelledtheworld will look at the music bursaries as dd just passed grade 6, so might have grade 8 by the time she leaves 6th form - thanks for the tip.

Thanks everyone else for replies/info/tips - this has been such a helpful and reassuring thread for me -I really appreciate all your comments.

DD is doing an Inspire course this summer, which is run by the same organisation that does Headstart but for Year 10 girls, and then I think they have priority if they apply for Headstart next year

This certainly used to be true but they 'forgot' when my daughter applied for a headstart course and she nearly missed out. Fair play to them for sorting it out once we received her rejection. They eventually found her a place on a course. I just thought I'd mention it so that you know to look out for it. We had clicked th correct boxes on the Headstart application form and had sent it in very early

Some universities put the numbers of applicants for each course on their Departmental web sites. It just takes a bit of trawling through everything. They usually do say how many places are available.

Don't forget each student may appear on the application stats 5 times at different universities. You may not know what percentage of applicants put the course as first choice or just discarded an offer! Or indeed didn't get one. However it does give you a flavour of where gets lots of applicants. I think it is best to choose the course and university you really want rather then trying to guess what the number of applicants actually tells you.

DD applied for elec eng this year, so another one where the main criterion for selection is excellent grades esp in maths, but they did also seem to want to check genuine interest and some practical experience. All the places she applied to interviewed, and at most the PS seemed to provide a starting point for discussions (apart from the technical questions). Hers was virtually all about how she'd become interested in it and developed that interest (things like Arkwright scholarship, which funded the kit needed for her robot-building EPQ, headstart course, running robotics club... all avoiding the one word her school bans which is the hackneyed 'passion'. DofE was briefly mentioned with something about teamwork or determination...one of her interviewers did ask her about what she'd done for it, leading to a pleasant conversation about how much better the sailing was at his uni than elsewhere ...

Don't forget each student may appear on the application stats 5 times at different universities

Yes - dd was initially rather disconcerted by the high number of applicants at some of her choices, higher than Cambridge -until we worked through the fact that many of those people will be making overlapping offers and can only ever accept one place. One persons insurance or 5th choice will be another persons first or wildly aspirational.

In haste - first wanted to say many of those things like D of E or NCS would be valuable to put on a CV for future jobs: it's not just about UCAS. And that many are just great value in and of themselves.

And finally - lots of places do Physics work experience for year 12 students so do get onto that as well. My DD had a great time in a physics lab at a top uni one summer - and everyone she was with did end up getting an offer which may have been coincidence or it may have helped show passion.