Take a gap year and reapply to Oxbridge?

[tyngedyriaith]

DD has been rejected from Cambridge. People with far worse grades have gotten in. She's disappointed. She mentioned retrying next year if she exceeds the standard offer?

Is it worth it considering Welsh fees are going up next year?

Where does M&S fit in?

I've been reading this with increasing incredulity. For a (self confessed) well educated woman of high social standing you are incredibly rude Bobochic - I assume you keep your diplomatic skills for your clients. And much as I can admire your tenacity in holding an opinion I can see why you are not yourself an academic (oxbridge or otherwise).

Bobo, I think re the admissions data User addressed that upthread. What I have inferred from your posts (and I apologise if I am wrong) is that French schools (not international schools in France) are not particularly encouraging or supportive of applications to Oxbridge which could lead to not having the precedents to go by. I am not sure what Oxbridge can do about this.

Needmore, (honeyed tones) because this is not just any conspiracy ...........

French schools are generally not terribly supportive of applications to HE outside France but this does not deter some 4,500 French applicants from trying every cycle. The major issue applicants have is in weighing up the probability of their being offered a place in particular courses. Their chances are not perfectly correlated with the chances of English applicants, even when meeting all published selection criteria.

MrsWobble - I don't have issues with being rude when others are rude first. Politeness is greatly overrated.

Bobo why do they need to 'weigh up the probability of their being offered a place'? Surely a French French Bac kid simply applies to French places and sticks in a UCAS form alongside, with five unis they fancy. If they don't get a place then tant pis. You make this into a huge deal when it really isn't. It's not a science you have to examine minutely - or at least that's not how my DC or the vast majority of their friends have approached it over the years and tbh they (DC and friends) seem to have had moderate success without all the agony. The best laid plans and all that - just tell the French French Bac kids to have a go and maybe stand back yourself, even if the handbag stash does risk taking a hit.

I am not making any kind of deal out of it, stranger. I'm on the receiving end of people who have many questions about the process and few ways of feeling confident in their abilities to know much about it. I had someone call me last week who had spent over €10,000 on a consultant for his daughter's UCAS application and she had been turned down by her three favourite universities. He was looking for an explanation (which was dead simple for me to give by the way). I think it's awful that consultancies are ripping parents off like this, but universities fuel the industry through lack of transparent information.

User. [sigh]
Please stop misconstruing what I said. 'Most' does not = all
My PP was
-In most university departments the highest density of research calibre plus funding is at Oxbridge. These two universities attract most excellent academics at some point in their postgraduate career.-

I even stressed 'most' in my PP by putting it in bold because of course for example Imperial, UCL, LSE and now Frances Crick do very well or better than Oxbridge in certain regards. Of course there will be certain pockets of excellence elsewhere or one or two internationally recognised researchers per department. However the fact that Oxbridge has such a high density of high impact research and funding across most of their departments does make a difference as this is conducive to productive crosstalk and sharing of expertise plus resources between top research departments within the institutions as well as external collaborations. And, this attracts excellent junior academics at some point in their careers including some historical links like Rhode's scholars in Oxford

I would doubt that many academics like yourself if outside the Oxbridge/ London golden funding triangle would turn down a senior position at Oxford or Cambridge.

BTW I am flattered that you think (despite my poor MN writing) that I might have a career as an academic in humanities or social sciences .

In support of Bobo, I do think the French system in particular does not allow their extremely bright students to shine at Oxbridge interviews. Perhaps because the top students have to work so hard to cover their syllabus and get the 19+ marks so have little time to think outside the box?
Why though this is different to other European students who have a broad curriculum, I have no idea.

It is not about 'probability'.

It is not random chance.

We do not put their names in a hat, shake it, throw salt over our shoulders and draw our slips of paper using the ceremonial selecting-tongs.

Right?

Stats can only take you so far, and you clearly find that frustrating. But it's not some giant conspiracy or lack of transparency.

Anna's contributions are genius. Thank you Anna, the latest has cheered up my macaroni cheese making efforts no end :)

You aren't a statistician either, LRD. But I think we knew that already

Please put yourself in the shoes of parents who are going to support and fund their DC's application and education before judging the way families look at these things.

sendsummer - I agree that super smart French Terminale students (of whom I have met quite a few, from a lot of different lycees) tend to be seriously coinces. It's unfortunate.

I do not need to be a statistician to point out that a statistic telling you 9% of a group are successful applicants, cannot tell you very much about individual people's chances within that group. If it were an entirely random selection, it would tell you a great deal. But it isn't.

Not sure Bob that you've addressed the ? of why the hand wringing and agony you are apparently witness to on a regular basis??
Yu are a bright French teen. You want to study [inset subject of choice]. You fancy studying in the UK. Surely you read all the readily available info, you email / phone the relevant universities if you have questions about how they will view your qualifications etc if this isn't clear, you maybe attend some open days to see if you actually LIKE the look of these places (and ask any questions of the very helpful admissions tutors at these events). You fill your UCAS form in..... you submit written work / do pre tests and cross your fingers and hope for an interview etc. You are either successful or not. If not you can usually request feedback... WHAT IS THE PROBLEM??

LRD - are you telling me you do not use the sorting hat ? I thought you were a decent sort, watching Lewis, with your DP , now I am not so sure

"I do not need to be a statistician to point out that a statistic telling you 9% of a group are successful applicants, cannot tell you very much about individual people's chances within that group. If it were an entirely random selection, it would tell you a great deal. But it isn't."

Er this is what my Mathsy husband would say - I just think of it as - for the subject you want to do are you up there with the best of them who have been selected before & even so - it's never a given. Ds could have applied for Joint Honours Football and Art at Oxford with a one in two success rate. Let me tell you - his personal chances would not have been 50% (He would say the same)

So my point is Bobo (and I hope I am putting this politely) is that it is better to concentrate on the actual qualities needed for admission, rather than the statistics. This may very well be harder in France.

I would doubt that many academics like yourself if outside the Oxbridge/ London golden funding triangle would turn down a senior position at Oxford or Cambridge.

Golden funding triangle? Biosciences? Medical sciences?

Not so relevant in many areas of physical sciences and engineering. It's pretty common nowadays for Oxbridge positions to be turned down in favour of positions elsewhere in the country paying more, cost of living lower, position offered at more senior level, less teaching involved. Personally I would cheerfully take a 90k professor position at e.g. Durham over a 60k reader or a 75k professor position in Cambridge because funding in my field sn't concentrated in Oxbridge/London and I am confident I could get top graduate students/postdocs to come to my group in Durham.

Back to the OP's question: there are plenty of top universities outside Oxbridge. Coming to Oxbridge at post-graduate level may be useful in some fields but (provided you find a top group) not necessary to be in a world class group. I genuinely don't think that people should get fixated about Oxbridge instead of making the most of other terrific opportunities offered to them.

Basilisk - of course it is better to focus on qualities needed for admission rather than statistics. But people work with the information available to them, and the costs of access to those qualities. It is even harder for French applicants to grasp the qualities needed than the statistical probability of admission.

'We do not put their names in a hat, shake it, throw salt over our shoulders and draw our slips of paper using the ceremonial selecting-tongs'

To be fair, Pembroke was still doing it that way until the 1989 admissions scandal.

user3615 - I agree that (at least pre-Brexit) there are all sorts of incredible opportunities available at UK universities and nit picking about institution/brand is missing the point. Go wherever you will learn most about what interests you, with people who support your interests.

Bobo can I help out here? The qualities you need are to be a bit more than tolerably bright and the cost is £24 for UCAS - a bit less than a very cheap handbag.

OK Bobo, I think I get your point. I do not have your experience but if people are coming to you to justify why their DC did not "get in" based on statistics , I personally would just advise them to get the feedback and go from there. Without knowing the system I can see that having an idea of various exams is useful but I still hold to my point that you investigate what the target university requires for the course (not just minimum entrance requirements IYSWIM) and work back from there. If you are at a disadvantage because the school you attend does not e.g. teach to the standard or indeed teaches in a way which may suit a very prestigious university in France but not e.g. Oxford or Durham , well that's a bigger problem.

Anyway my typing is writing cheques my knowledge and experience can't cash so good luck to OP's DD, hope she has managed to pick some useful stuff out of this , but also thanks everyone for a few interesting discussions and indeed laughs.