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Higher education

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Take a gap year and reapply to Oxbridge?

518 replies

tyngedyriaith · 12/01/2017 19:03

DD has been rejected from Cambridge. People with far worse grades have gotten in. She's disappointed. She mentioned retrying next year if she exceeds the standard offer?

Is it worth it considering Welsh fees are going up next year?

OP posts:
Bobochic · 23/01/2017 08:57

RhodaBull - I expect that published statistics for applicants from other countries are as misleading as they are from France - why wouldn't they be? I do not have access (or the time or inclination) to reconstruct statistics from the bottom up for other countries. The issue is that, if published admissions statistics are misleading, what does that suggest about transparency in general?

user7214743615 · 23/01/2017 09:05

The onus is on you to give hard evidence that the published admissions statistics actually are misleading.

(And as I say repeatedly on these threads - when around a third of permanent academic staff are actually not British, why on earth would they be biased against international candidates?)

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 09:06

Yes, and goodbyestranger has asked me to walk her through the reasoning, which I have started to do.

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 09:09

I have never claimed, by the way, that individual academics are biased against international candidates. As you say, why would they be?

user7214743615 · 23/01/2017 09:11

But individual academics (in small groups) are the ones who make the decisions. There is no one institutional policy. Academics get to choose the candidates they think are best, based on all the data in front of them. Many departments will have experience of working in France, may well have academics from France in their own department. They do know perfectly well how to normalise school results from France against results from elsewhere.

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 09:13

Sure. But published statistics wildly overstate (by omission of key information i.e. Misrepresentation) the probability of a French student from France getting through the process.

goodbyestranger · 23/01/2017 09:23

The stats say 9% success rate very similar to other EU countries with similar numbers applying.

It would be more straightforward if you simply explained why you believe the stats to be misleading rather than attempt to make me answer questions like a kindergarten child.

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 09:27

It's actually very important, goodbyestranger, for you to tell me what impression the published data leaves you with, as that is pretty likely to be the same impression that a random applicant is left with.

goodbyestranger · 23/01/2017 09:33

It says 9% success rate so the impression it leaves with me is that 9% of the 200 or so students who apply get an offer.

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 09:35

You are not answering the question I asked you. If you ask me to walk you through a reasoning, you do actually need to know how to respond.

RhodaBull · 23/01/2017 09:37

No one has great odds of getting into Oxbridge, unless they are a widening-participation applicant with a full house of grades doing MFL or Classics.

goodbyestranger · 23/01/2017 09:42

I'm trying very hard to put myself into the mindset of a random French applicant but the number neuf suggests neuf to me - somewhere between huit and dix.

I'm not very good at this game.

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 09:44

I agree entirely, Rhoda. But it is quite reasonable for an (any) applicant to try to work out whether the probability of their receiving an offer is 0.01%. 0.1%, 1%, 10% etc

Needmoresleep · 23/01/2017 09:48

Ah, finally figured it out. I once worked in le 8ème, which presumably scuppered DS' chance of an Oxbridge place. Brexit is too recent. Perhaps Diana? Or do dons' memories stretch back to De Gaulle or Napoleon.

Surely at the end of the day, Oxbridge re-applications reflect what you might do in real life. You don't get a job. Another similar vacancy is advertised. You don't apply because you have decided your application was not strong enough, or because the competition was so intense, or you have found another good job. Or you reapply because the job is the perfect next step for your career and/or in the right location, and you can see ways of strengthening your application or suspect you were a near miss, and think things might go your way this time. As far as I can tell Oxbridge do their best to give all home/EU applicants an equal chance, as they are required to do by law.

7214743615 is correct. Many of DC's London contempories were happy to shrug their shoulders and head off for Imperial/UCL/LSE, where they are confident of an interesting, stretching education. However this is harder for students from outside London who do not find the thought of student life in London attractive. Others decided that an extra year was not much in the scheme of things, and so had another go. Including some like Orlanda's DS who failed to land a place on any of the very competitive courses first time round. Our observation has been of a good success rate on reapplication, but these were usually credible rather than "have a go" candidates. And even if a student does not get a place, the extra year's maturity can mean you are more University ready, wherever you go. (And specifically perhaps, more ready to live in London if that is your alternative.)

I wonder if Bob's worries stem from British Universities looking for different things. So "strong" French candidates may not do as well in the British application process, whilst others, considered weaker, land places. Bob has previously complained of an LSE bias against the French, but I have been assured that French is the third most commonly heard language in LSE corridors, after English and Mandarin, so someone is getting in.

As to a bias against public schools, DCs school was never convinced. They sometimes had bad years for specific subjects, where very strong candidates did not get places, but things generally balanced out. Candidates did need to be at the top of their game, and competition for some subjects (E&M, NatSci, Engineering, medicine, law, engineering etc) was such that there could not be a place for every strong candidate. But hey. Apply again or go somewhere else good. Again Bob's problem seems to be that her clients won't consider places outside the London-Oxbridge triangle. But then again they may well have different fall-backs in the US, Canada, or France.

goodbyestranger · 23/01/2017 09:50

Clearly you don't think neuf means neuf Bob but the real point is what does neuf mean and what information is being suppressed or misrepresented?

Also, the chances are that those responsible for publishing these stats are likely to be falsifying the whole set of stats not just picking on French people so why should the French be especially outraged? I don't see that they should expect to be treated differently and certainly not better than anyone else. Seems pretty entitled to me.

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 10:08

As usual, NeedMoreSleep, your penchant for fantasy is greater than your appreciation of data Wink

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 10:09

No one has said the French are outraged.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/01/2017 10:11

I could be being exceptionally stupid here, but I fail to see how a statistic saying there's 9% success rate should lead any applicant to presume they, personally, have a slightly-less-than-one-in-ten probability of getting in.

So why are we talking about the 'probability' of getting in? It's not a coin toss.

I can't imagine there's something special about French students that renders them less able to understand this.

AnnaMagdalene · 23/01/2017 10:13

Because they are exceptionally neuf-ous?

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 10:16

LRD - I agree, but the 9% statistic might suggest that they have a small chance? One worth investing time and money in, and hassling their school about?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/01/2017 10:18

The 9% statistic would suggest that 9% of candidates are successful, bobo - no more and no less.

I certainly think hassling a school sounds like a crass approach.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/01/2017 10:19

Let's be clear here: are you saying that fewer than 9% of candidates from French schools are successful in their applications?

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 10:20

Yes.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/01/2017 10:23

So when and how does the falsifying of statistics happen? And what does Oxbridge stand to gain from it? How does it relate to the Etonian cover-up, and will Brexit affect the French plot for better, or for worse?

Most importantly, need I wear a false moustache and a subversive beret next time I walk through the tunnel to our secret HQ under the fountain of King's main quad?

Bobochic · 23/01/2017 10:30

It happens because applicants from France are counted in multiple ways (in fact, different data sets even use different definitions).

Is an applicant from France:

  • a French national at a French school
  • a non-French national at a French school
  • a dual national Franco-British national at an international school in France
  • someone taking a French bac
  • someone taking an OIB
  • someone taking an IB

Etc etc

You need to compare the actual profile of applicants with the profile of offerees (information which is very hard to uncover) to understand how poor the chances of a French applicant from a French school actually are.

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