Durham: Chinese Studies, or Combined Honours in Social Sciences?

[shockthemonkey]

Hello, this is a question about the relative prestige of these two degrees from Durham. My charge is trying to choose between Combined Honours in Social Sciences (where he would mix History/IR/Econ with Chinese Language), and the Chinese Studies route. He is equally happy with the content of either choice.

He already has his school-leaving qualification, Bac ES from France with International Option, having scored 17.93 out of 20 -- this comes out at over A*AA on Durham's conversion tables.

The entry requirements for Chinese Studies at Durham is AAB, and for Combined Honours in Social Sciences it's A*AA. I am thinking the difference in typical offers reflects a difference in difficulty and it may follow that employers would be more impressed with the Combined Honours... but am I right?

This is a quite ambitious and proud student who is nonetheless quite happy to take the easier route if it leads to the same outcome. (Not workshy, but likes to conserve his efforts!)

I hope someone who knows Durham well, or who is involved in graduate recruitment, can advise. He fancies a career in the diplomatic service.

Thanks!

Are you talking about FCO or Quai d'Orsay. The French civil service has a very different approach. I am not very up to date but the Civil Service Fast Stream, which is the normal route in, pay a lot less emphasis on degree subject, internships, languages etc, a lot more on performance during testing. If aiming for the French system a postgraduate year at ENA, or a Brussels internship might be considered on top of a UK degree.

Chinese cannot but help in that few have sufficient language aptitude to learn as adults and it is expensive to train people. But broader thinking skills, perhaps honed by some law, history or economics content in a degree are also important. Competition is huge so best consider it as something to have a go at in parallel with a focus on something else. There again someone has to get in.

I do think a lot of top people in the civil service have top class academic degrees from the best universities. You could check out who the top civil servants are and our ambassadors and see what their profiles are like. The huge competition means everything (university, course and internships ) should be chosen to make such a career possible and I bet they love Oxbridge!

borojo, I suspect things have moved on since the days when Oxbridge degrees automatically got you top jobs. Top civil servants and ambos will have started their careers a long time ago.

If Shock's son were really interested he could probably ask about the educational backgrounds of last year's intake, but I would expect it to be a mix of subjects and from a mix of universities, albeit with a basic requirement that applicants possess policy skills of being able to absorb and weigh up new information quickly. From what Shock suggests, her son has grown up in France. His bigger challenenge might be cultural. French education seems to have a different approach to philosophy and reasoning than Anglo-Saxon educational traditions. For example the British emphasise the importance of clarity and simplicity in official language, whilst the French seem to aim for sophistication. For that reason alone he might consider a degree with a broader, more social science/humanities orientation.

Am watching this thread with interest.

My DD wants to go to Durham to pursue a joint honours including Spanish and History. She is also interested in Civil service/diplomacy.

She prefers the idea of Durham to Oxbridge and I did wonder if today there needed to be a broader intake to civil service jobs to include unis such as Durham. She is scared of elite atmosphere of Oxbridge and just loved the students she met at Durham on Open day.

The language course seems very Arts/culture based which she prefers and History very broad and international. Both subjects at the very top of league tables and seemed so interesting with passionate lecturers.

She has also studied Japanese and could pick that up now at Durham. Heard about Chinese studies while there which seems to follow similar bent to other Language degrees there - emphasis on Arts/culture.

However, this is just gleaning a little from an open day.

I have to say this, it will help firstly if you're female but also if you fit a tick box on ethnic minority or disability for entering civil service. Statistically you might have more luck if you tick multiple boxes than exactly where you studied. Witness it day in day out. Be aware at just how low FCO salaries are. It's only really the COLA in hardship postings which give you a decent life. Otherwise actually on a full time starting salary and more than 3 kids, you'll be claiming tax credits.

Needmore French education seems to have a different approach to philosophy and reasoning than Anglo-Saxon educational traditions. For example the British emphasise the importance of clarity and simplicity in official language, whilst the French seem to aim for sophistication. For that reason alone he might consider a degree with a broader, more social science/humanities orientation. Perhaps studying a language so economical that having established the timeframe it doesn't bother with different verb congugations for the tense will be the perfect antidote

Ron - my understanding is that one reason why English is such dominent international language is that its lack of precision and general economy is easier for Asians whose own languages may lack tenses, articles and other things Europeans take for granted. (I speak one, but not Chinese. )

I believe most high quality MFL degrees study art and culture as well as language acquisition. I assume Durham would expect a full year abroad in a Spanish speaking country - the same as any other university. They will also expect a high standard of translation and ability to converse and write Spanish so it will not be a strong art/culture bias when she gets down to it. When you go to more open days, violets , you will find Durham is not particularly different in the structure of an MFL degree. I think doing 2 languages and History would be seriously hard work. Does your DD propose to be examined in Japanese as well as Spanish?

I have just seen an article about FCO recruitment from 2013. It lists 28 top universities visited by them in 2 weeks - Durham was not one of them. The list is quite surprising in that it includes Northampton and Gloucester. I wonder what the 2016 list would look like, if there was one? I also noticed they made a big statement about working in Brussels. That employment opportunity will wain fairly quickly now one assumes . They also have intensive teaching for language acquisition.

I have heard differently bojoro. Talking to Language teachers, some degrees now focus more on linguistics and communication and do little literature. I know a friend's DD was terribly disappointed with this at Manchester.

As for Brussels - my DD was gutted about Brexit , precisely with jobs in mind - apart from broader issues.

Do either of the courses involve a year abroad? If he really wants to be able to speak Mandarin, he should pick the one that does.

I did a combined degree in Chinese and Japanese, and have to say that the language fluency I achieved came not from the time at university in the UK, but time studying/living abroad, some of it during the course, most of it afterwards. Obviously the basics picked up in university language classes helped, but I don't think anyone comes out of a university course speaking a language at a useful level of fluency without at least a half-year abroad.

As far as the FCO goes, I know people from my generation who joined with language degrees, which often seem to mean they are likely to get the chance to go to a country speaking that language at least once in their career (possibly more often if it is a harder/less common language like Chinese/Japanese/Arabic), but they are also expected to pick up other languages for different postings.

Bojorojo - I think the FCO is also on a mission to diversify its staff and expand its intake beyond the usual Oxbridge-and-similar universities, which is why they may be making a point of making recruitment visits to less prestigious places.

I think it would be far from sensible to assume that opportunities in Brussels and just about every area of trade and other diplomacy where a knowledge of language and cultures are important are going to wain in even the longer term as a result of Brexit, whatever your views it is widely acknowledged the fall out is certainly going to take ten years or more to work through and that the UK Civil Service and indeed all the Consultancies who are currently recruiting madly are short of the skills needed for that process. It may perhaps be one of the few areas in which there might be opportunity for emerging graduates, unlike my Scientist daughter who feels very grim about prospects here at the moment and not a little sold out having answered the call to STEM rather than to MFL and area studies, though she feels her MFL may well be a crucial part of her skill set in future. Whatever it perhaps underlines that planning for a narrow career option in an uncertain world is perhaps less important than just getting the best degree you can in the subject that most motivates and interests you.

Gosh, this has moved on since I last checked!

All the degrees he's looking at will involve a year in China. Even if he goes CHSS route, the inclusion of Chinese in there will automatically turn the 3 yrs into 4 to allow for the year abroad.

I am always interested in the different styles of writing between French and English. My charge has mastered both as he did the OIB and scored particularly well in the English-taught and English-examined subjects of History and Eng lang/lit. Looking over his essays in Eng History and comparing them to his philo essays written in French and in the French style, he has really grasped this!

We are definitely talking FCO and not Quai d'Orsay.

I tried the FCO fast stream test years ago coming out of uni... and learnt that it's vital to practice for it! I went in blind and didn't get called back. Had never seen anything like it before. Proves that yes, good degree from Oxbridge is certainly not sufficient.

In my father's day, FCO looked after you and your family very well, even if the basic pay was probably not good. But nice houses, tickets home, long leave, boarding schools etc were all taken care of. These days I know it's no longer the case and my charge is aware of all this -- what he's after is the type of work, not the perks. But I must say it can be hard, if your perks are less generous, to work in some far-flung places.

I also sense that the "broader thinking skills" that Sleep alludes to will be a very important ingredient in his degree -- and this is where the Durham CHSS programme looks great. Although he'll also apply to Cambridge for Chinese Studies and if he gets an offer there, I think he'll go for the dreaming spires (although Durham's spires are also really lovely...)

I do believe the FCO is seeking to widen its skill base (my earlier post was wrong!) but Oxford and Cambridge were on the list!!! It was also interesting to see Bradford, Aston and a few others in highish Muslim populated areas on the list too. My comment re Brussels is purely becayse the FCO says on their website that many diplomats get sent there. Obviously that line of work will decrease eventually but other strands will take over, as the recruitment strategy seems to suggest.

Yes violets some degrees are linguistic and translation focused but not so much at the very best universities. Lots do link up with translation centres in universities abroad but only if you take that option. I think if you look at Manchester's options you will see this. Having said that , DD went to Manchester on an offer day several years ago and they are not very choosy about who they let in. DD was told not to worry about the result in her third A level - just give them a ring. Most MFL language acquisition is gained gained from the year abroad, unless you are fluent already and art/culture can be studied as part of this too. So if your DD does a year at a Spanish university it is perfectly possible to choose art/culture courses taught in Spanish. I think lots of students avoid translation and linguistic courses because they are too narrow and definitely less interesting if you have done essay A levels as well as languages. My DD studied lots of books, plays, art, medieval French, film, politics, and the culture of the countries she went to on her year abroad . It was a very varied range of options!

Sounds good Bojoro.

My DD is saying today that she may apply to Oxbridge to see if she gets in and what college she was appointed . On one thread - here or another, a postee was saying about being disappointed with college offer at Durham.

She did do a taster day at Cambridge - which was nice enough - but was peturbed that all visiting students complained they could not understand the Spanish - all in target language. My DD is exceptional at Spanish so to be a bit at sea was surprising. What she liked about Durham is that they do half and half target language and English in teaching - made her feel more confident.

Do wonder about college allocation at Durham. They say it is very random but that subject professors select colleges - so I'm presuming strong candidates get their choice. Someone else said, extra curricular was important but our lectures definitely said keep hobbies etc. to bare minimum on form.

For my DS, we kept extra curricular to a 5th of form for top Engineering courses - that worked.

Durham want analysis ( we were told)of something they have studied - comparative discussions.

Interested by novel choices up thread. DD is looking at Spanish civil war lit and history for her combination of subject choices.

V. interesting thread. Thank you.

The college selection at Durham is indeed random; it changed a few years ago to stop cherry picking of students for the rugby team or orchestra etc. My Dd didn't get the one she had put done but has settled into her college and wouldn't be anywhere else. Which from what I gather is generally how it goes for most students.

Employers of all striped used to be very sniffy about the Combined Durham degrees, because the implication was that students weren't really good enough to get to Durham on names JH degrees: this has changed now - in the same way that having some kind of Area Studies degree is looked at differently to, say, Media Studies. The FCO fast-stream also looks very favourably on applicants from ex-polys - it can actually be a disadvantage to be a white male with an Oxbridge degree to some extent. You don't even need existing language capacity anymore either.

So your charge will be very advantaged by clearly having linguistic capacity, particularly in something traditionally considered "difficult" for Europeans ie Mandarin - and I truly don't think, if both courses offer a year abroad, that it matters what he picks in terms of course: something he thinks he'll enjoy and be able to do well at. All subjects are beneficial - whether he picks IR, history, politics, economics, literature etc: the point is that, at some element of the application, he may need to demonstrate that relevance - if he can provide a convincing rationale, that will be fine.

You might also want to flag up the DAIWA scholarship to him - if he's good with languages, that will help a lot with their language test (you don't need any Japanese to apply) and it is an amazing opportunity: literally life-changing for a lot of the scholars. It would also give him fantastic contacts, an additional "difficult" language and the opportunity to road-test the career of his choice in Japan - including foreign service. It is, though, rather more competitive than the FCO fast-stream!

The bottom line, though, is that if he gets at least a solid 2:i, he has as good a chance as anyone as being accepted into the FCO - and if he fulfills other of their under-recruited criteria (around ethnicity and disability, but also connected with socio-economic class indicator - though presumably, they wouldn't be applicable if he has grown up in France) definitely a better than evens chance.