personal statements

[stonecircle]

DS will be applying for uni in the autumn. I've been reading a lot lately about how personal statements should focus less on outside interests/other subjects and should give specific examples to support any claims to be 'passionate' etc about a subject.

He wants to do physics. I'm not sure how he can demonstrate his love of the subject. Other subjects are maths, computing and electronics and he's done things like build his own computer. But I can't think of anything specifically related to physics.

One of his brothers does geography and was able to write about his fossil collecting, being a member of the Royal Geographical Society etc.

I'm wondering if there are any physics societies he could join as a 17 year old. Any advice would be much appreciated.

[haybott]

If your DS is hoping for Oxbridge then he really needs to show awareness of mathematics beyond what is taught in school.

Hmmm. Yes. But not necessarily by liking popular mathematics books. I loathe many of the books mentioned above and I get bored of seeing them mentioned in personal statements. (Almost all books listed above show up in gazillions of personal statements for maths... but when you ask the students about the books they very rarely got much from them.)

I would appreciate an honest statement of what the student enjoys about maths much more than the hackneyed - "I find Marcus du Sautoy fascinating and I went to see a lecture of his last year", "After reading Uncle Petros I had much more understanding of what pure mathematics is".

Personal statements will not make much difference for maths anywhere. The personal statement might be a conversation opener for the few places that interview for maths (and virtually nobody outside Oxbridge does) but the bulk of the interview will be solving hard mathematical problems using A level knowledge. For Oxford, MAT score plus grades will be the main filters for getting an interview.

[haybott]

If he was going to pick one from the list above, I would go for the Hardy (a very highly respected book).

[noblegiraffe]

I loathe many of the books mentioned above and I get bored of seeing them mentioned in personal statements

That is a matter of taste, surely, and we are talking about an 18 year old who has nothing beyond school and Kangaroo to put in his personal statement who wants to study maths because it's easy!

[ImperialBlether]

What about the TED talks on physics?

[lasermum]

Haybott - thank you as well. Ds attends a comprehensive school which doesn't appear to have sent many candidates to Oxbridge over recent years so we are on a steep learning curve! He does genuinely enjoy maths but it is hard to get that over in a personal statement. ( Also I feel sorry for the admissions tutors who have to read all the personal statements!)

[haybott]

Noblegiraffe, I would be surprised if you found a maths academic who wasn't tired of reading false enthusiasm about popular maths books in personal statements.

Very few popular maths books do actually give an idea of what maths at university is like. Any attempts to explore this would be appreciated.

[noblegiraffe]

Oh I think false enthusiasm isn't restricted to maths UCAS statements! The problem is that you're saying the statement doesn't matter and they just need to do maths at the interview but they have to write something. There aren't many opportunities for extra-curricular maths so popular maths books are an easy starting point.

[bojorojo]

The Which University guide has some suggestions for writing a Maths personal statement. Interestingly they suggest showing you have enthusiasm and interests outside maths! This may we'll fill up the space.

[bojorojo]

As a guide, I remember DD was told 25% about her achievements, 50% about why she wanted to study her subject and 25% about her further studies and experience that meant she would be a successful student.

[haybott]

The Which University guide has some suggestions for writing a Maths personal statement. Interestingly they suggest showing you have enthusiasm and interests outside maths!

I also find this advice a bit silly, because interests outside maths are irrelevant for getting offers in maths. On the other hand if it helps you fill up the space with sensible stuff e.g. skills picked up via volunteering or DoE, fair enough.

In general for maths students should write something reasonable but they should not over-analyse and google for what they "should" be writing. Most of all they should be honest. A paragraph discussing what they have enjoyed from maths in school and why they want to spend their time doing maths is far better than putting lots of false stuff about loving popular maths books. (Iain Stewart is another name that gets mentioned but students fall to bits when asked to discuss the books they supposedly read.)

BTW they don't actually have to write the full length allowed, although very few schools would be happy submitting a UCAS application without a full length personal statement.

And again - not being interested in popular maths or science books (I'm not and neither are many of my colleagues) does not imply anything about your ability at university level maths. I worry that pupil who don't like popular science, science programmes on TV, outreach events etc falsely get the impression that they should like them if they are going to go on to science.

[noblegiraffe]

putting lots of false stuff about loving popular maths books.

What if this kid reads some of the suggestions and genuinely likes them? Not sure you should try to put someone who likes maths off popular maths books as not worthwhile before they've even read any.

[bojorojo]

I dint think it is silly to mention you captain the school's chess club or that you are good at sailing or rowing for example. It is just a sentence or two and says something about you as a person. Just writing about your huge mathematical brain must be rather difficult for the whole ps (this is a tongue in cheek comment like the one about filling up the space!!) so a couple of sentences to show you are a mere mortal would never do any harm! (This is tongue in cheek too!). Why are maths people so one dimensional?

[haybott]

Why are maths people so one dimensional?

They are not.

But activities and interests outside maths are irrelevant for getting an offer at a top university for maths. It is worth bearing this in mind when writing a personal statement. The weakest ones I have seen from a maths perspective are the ones which talk about DoE, playing in orchestras, being in a county sports team, work experience etc, toss in a few references to liking books by Marcus du Sautoy/Iain Stewart and then have a paragraph about enjoying helping younger kids with maths. None of this content would explain why this person wants to study maths. For me, the main issue with personal statements is that they typically don't directly address the question of why the student wants to study the subject - they talk around the issue.

Weak statements won't make any real difference if the grades/MAT/STEP scores are good but I thought the point of this thread was to discuss what makes a stronger personal statement?

[haybott]

Not sure you should try to put someone who likes maths off popular maths books.

I'm not - I highlighted the book that I think is most relevant for somebody considering studying maths at university.

I see many students who fake an interest and who get caught out in interview. If he likes the books and can talk about them, mention them. If he doesn't really like the books and didn't finish them, then don't mention them on the statement and get tripped up in interview. And if he doesn't like the books he shouldn't infer that he won't like university level maths (browsing through university first year material would give him an indication of what he should expect).

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

if people live within reach of London the Royal Institution does some great lectures that are suitable for both younger and older teens in maths and science. They are really interesting and would give a good springboard for discussions.

[haybott]

BTW a final comment before leaving this thread: the books listed above relate mostly to pure maths but the UK has a very broad interpretation of maths. Maths departments are typically less than half or a third pure maths, with the rest being statistics, probability, mathematical physics, engineering maths, applied maths (which is not mechanics!), mathematical biology, information theory etc. Maths courses include all of these areas.

So one should also add to the list books such as those by Stephen Hawking (who is in a maths department) and Chaotic Fishponds and Mirror Universes (Elwes), which spans much of the work done in maths departments.

[bojorojo]

It's great attending a lecture on ps content when the lecturer walks out!
I have yet to see any school that advises their pupils to talk 100% about why they want to study a particular course. Most advisers would say this is one dimensional and does not give any idea about what the student is really like as a person, except being one dimensional. Ok, if that is what universities want but employers don't . This is probably why a young Cambridge Maths graduate I know took over a year to get a job and at his first appraisal he was asked if he could converse with his colleagues. Utterly brilliant at maths though.

[lasermum]

Thank you all for your comments. Maths does seem to be the exception to the usual guidance when it comes to personal statements.

[Needmoresleep]

Laser, what hatbott says sounds right. DC were at a very academic school with about 70 a year taking double maths at A level. Some of their peers were very very good. Cambridge seem to mainly select on ability. Indeed they hand out possibly twice as many offers as they have places, and use STEP to filter. An interest in crochet is irrelevent. An all absorbing interest in maths is useful. Interestingly strong students who also have strong non-maths interests seem attracted to the US where a broader approach is encouraged.

Part may be because maths is quite a strange subject to study. DS has only realised at University that he is in fact quite a good mathematician and so has taken a lot of statistics and financial maths options. They go at a cracking pace. They covered half the content of an A2 FM paper in a single first year lecture. The advice is to spend a couple of hours before the lecture looking at the topic and then several hours after going through. You need to stay on top of it. Plenty of his peers with equally good A level results have struggled with the maths, and have moved towards less mathematical options. I understand that this also happens on maths degress, with a proportion of students switching to related but less conceptially demanding courses after a year.

In contast, and from observation only, Cambridge seems to like engineers who have something else to offer (sport, music etc) whilst Imperial, without a college system, seem less bothered.

There does not seem to be any hard and fast rule on PS. Universities want to select the most suitable students for their courses. A single minded PS from a maths applicant may tell them, as long as grades, STEP and other indicators are good, that here is someone who will be happy spending hours working on maths solutions.

Even medicine, which is one of the more PS heavy application processes, can vary. Some medical schools put far more weight than others on grades or aptitude tests. Others, once minimum academics are achieved, focus on PS, reference and interview.

[Bobochic]

bojorojo - I helped a French applicant with a maths PS last year. He had so much to say about his extra-curricular maths activities that there was barely any space to add that he was a chess whizz who spoke Chinese and had done 10 years of piano at the conservatoire.

[BensonBunny]

DDs personal statement focused on the shadowing she had done at the local university physics department and books she had read, she mentioned other interests and achievements (sport, DofE etc) briefly. Did your DS do work experience which would be relevant and could be discussed?

[bojorojo]

"Barely any space" does mean that there was a bit of space though and he did mention his other achievements, Bobochic - I hope. Music and Maths were always seen as complimenting each other!

Sport, drama, leadership positions held, music, Scouts, D of E, paid work, what your learned from work shadowing and any volunteering where a young person has given back to society says a great deal about a person and for most degrees, these are worth mentioning. I tend to agree that Maths is different, but I still think being able to display you have a rounded personality, are able to get on with others and are brilliant at Maths too, is best. It is ony a few sentences after all.

[Needmoresleep]

bojorojo, obviously it is best to be brilliant and rounded, but there is no need to pretend to be something you are not.

My best guess is that top maths courses really only care about the brilliant, and anything more is a bonus.

The student Bobo describes, sounds like the type of student who would be prioritising Harvard over Cambridge. There is a lot more scope in the US to do "everything". The English approach tends to be more specialised.

[bojorojo]

I totally agree that no potential student should ever pretend to be something they are not or indeed say they do something when they do not! Or indeed feign interest in books when they have barely skimmed the surface of one. I don't think I said they should!

[goodbyestranger]

Well Bobo did he end up at Harvard or was it Cambridge?