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Original poster

Lawyers - would you recommend starting a career in law now???

57 replies

cruusshed · 23/02/2016 12:50

Similar to the Dr thread. DS doing GCSEs this year thinking about a career in law. I have no idea about the profession or how it breaks down - but have picked up negative info in press around too many graduates and not enough jobs. Think I read somewhere that there are only 3-4k training places and 17k graduates each year?

So does this mean unless you go to the very top unis to study law you wont even get a training place?

What is happening in the profession generally?

Is it still the case that you can either do 3 years of law degree, then one year LLB and 2 years articles - or 3 years any degree and 1 year conversion etc.

OP posts:

ppan · 29/02/2016 20:27

Law has two problems - like most professions - you have to behave responsibly and you earn money by selling your time.

The job therefore has an impact on the rest of your life.

Still it could be worse, you could be a doctor.

BoboChic · 09/03/2016 08:05

I know lots of lawyers. All of the lawyers of my generation are unanimous about the fact that a law degree on its own is a weak foundation for a sustainable career. If you want to be a successful lawyer in future you will need several skill sets and/or qualifications.

senua · 09/03/2016 09:30

If you want to be a successful lawyer in future you will need several skill sets and/or qualifications.

Bobo, if you are going to post supposedly-helpful comments do you think you could actually make them helpful? You are a past master at posting things to the effect of "I know something that you don't know. I want you to know that I think that I know these things. But I'm not going to actually tell you what they are". You don't come across as informed, you come across as blustering smoke & mirrors.

The phrase 'several skill sets and/or qualifications' means nothing and conveys even less.

BoboChic · 09/03/2016 09:34

It's perfectly straightforward, senua, but if you need it spelling out because you don't know anything here goes. If you want to be a lawyer in future and make a decent living you will need to be qualified in more than one jurisdiction, speak several languages, have a scientific or business qualification (eg MBA), a legal speciality (or two or three) with a postgraduate qualification. Just a law degree won't be enough.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/03/2016 09:41

bobo that's simply not true for the vast majority of international firms.

These firms employ qualified lawyers in each jurisdiction. There is no shortage of them.

If you are say a UK or US lawyer you will still run your client base. But you will use others lawyers as and when jurisdiction requires.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/03/2016 09:44

And the way to get a training contract remains the same.

Degree. Law school. Training contract.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/03/2016 09:52

Btw I'm not saying bobo isn't correct for the French market.

Perhaps they require those things.

But the UK and US market do not.

BoboChic · 09/03/2016 09:53

Eric - Who they employ now and who they are recruiting for the future are not the same thing.

senua · 09/03/2016 09:57

If you want to be a lawyer in future and make a decent living you will need to be qualified in more than one jurisdiction, speak several languages, have a scientific or business qualification (eg MBA), a legal speciality (or two or three) with a postgraduate qualification. Just a law degree won't be enough.

Utter bullshit. To make a 'decent living' you need to be (no more than) competent and experienced; good at bringing in business which you delegate to competent people; a good manager.

Nice dig at 'if you need it spelling out' btw. If it's so bleeding obvious, why did you bother posting? And why not spell it out first time round?

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/03/2016 10:01

I know who they're recruiting now bobo and I know their processes.

For the UK and US markets, those young people are not multi qualified or pluri lingual ( generally).

senua · 09/03/2016 10:03

Who they employ now and who they are recruiting for the future are not the same thing.

Another classic "I know things that you don't know" even though Bobo doesn't actually work in Law.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/03/2016 10:07

Everyone's an expert.

As for how to make money as a lawyer, we'll there are lots if ways to skin a cat.

Different people use different skills. The notion that there is one 'right' way is daft.

BoboChic · 09/03/2016 10:09

That's because lawyers in the UK (not the US) don't spend very long in education before qualifying - the recruitment market isn't that hot. There are far too many potential English recruits but their skill sets are not terribly broad. But the future is with the broadly and highly qualified, which is where the international market is going and what DC wanting to go into law should be aiming to become.

I know (close family) plenty of UK and US (and French and German...
) super senior lawyers who are all adamant about the multiple skill set thing for future careers. So I take note of the message. Not that I think any of our DC will become lawyers.

redhat · 09/03/2016 10:15

This simply isn't true. In fact the reverse is true if anything. Lawyers are very specialised nowadays. Having two or three "specialities" is a positive disadvantage. You need to focus on one field and be excellent at it, not spread yourself thinly. Being qualified in more than one jurisdiction is only any good if you're flitting from one country to another. Not much point me being qualified in South African law unless I actually practise in South Africa. Languages are largely irrelevant in the legal world, a scientific qualification is no good to anyone unless they are doing something very niche and MBAs are not particularly valued if you are going to practise law (different potentially if you are focused on management but even now most law firms are still managed by lawyers). Even an LLM isn't a bonus IMO unless you want to teach law rather than practise it.

I have a business management qualification and a legal qualification btw. The business qualification hasn't given me any particular advantage.

To stand a chance in law you need to be intelligent, focused, determined, resilient, hardworking and prepared to sacrifice WLB. You need an eye for detail, the ability to negotiate without losing your cool and to have good public speaking skills. You need to be confident, good at marketing yourself and your firm, sociable (to bring in the work) and to have good management skills. Law is very varied. Some areas will need more of one skill and less of another. If you're a litigator you will use different skills to a conveyancer.

EricNorthmanSucks · 09/03/2016 10:16

I think anyone who says they can predict the future is bullshitting.

Who knows what the legal market will look like in twenty years.

The only certain thing is that to make (serious) cash you should not be doing all the legal work yourself! You shouldn't be dotting around doing the process.

As DH always says, the best work is the work you don't do yourself. So you delegate to all those different folks with different qualifications.

Truth is, getting started is the easy bit. You don't need to turn it into a three act drama.

Then you learn on the job. And make it work for you.

Molio · 09/03/2016 10:41

Bobo I think the real value of your posts is to read them and then advise DC to do the opposite.

bojorojo · 09/03/2016 10:45

Mine is becomming a lawyer - barrister. What has worked for her is a non-law degree and doing lots of volunteering in the sector she intends to practice in. Plenty of lawyers do not have law degrees and they obviously bring different skills into their work which is valued. Law firms and Chambers obviously want a mix of talent. She studied languages but does not expect to use them in her work.

Everyone she knows in city law firms is undertaking training with the firms so detailed and specialist previous knowledge is not expected. However, everything redhat says about personal attributes is correct. Not everyone will be an international lawyer and even with languages she has not gone down that road. She has other skills though and has chosen a career path that plays to these strengths.

DD will have spent 6 years in full time education and then one year as a Pupil. I think that is long enough really! She has friends in Switzerland who are still studying at 25/26 but that is normal there and job seeking is often done in their mid 20s. Multiple internships and further study are normal. Here there is no particular need unless you really want to be specialised but then you have to get the job that actually wants your narrow specialism. That is not always easy as DDs friends are finding out when applying for pupillage.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 09/03/2016 12:02

Ds1 graduated with a 2:1 in law from Reading last year - it's a university with a very good reputation for law. I will ask him for you how many of his fellow graduates got training contracts, but as far as I know, people didn't have much trouble finding work post graduation.

It's worth noting, too, that a law degree doesn't just have to point you at a law career - ds1 is now doing a commercial graduate training scheme, where he will use his law degree in the contracts side of things but will also be training as a quantity surveyor - apparently the firm were really keen to have him because of his law degree and his interest in commercial management in that field.

TheFormidableMrsC · 09/03/2016 12:10

I am so glad to have found this thread. This is something I have been considering but have been put off because of my age mainly. I have given up on the idea of a law degree but have been considering training as a paralegal. Will watch with interest.

redhat · 09/03/2016 12:17

Paralegal work is generally NMW work (or slightly above). For most it's not a career like it is in the states where the legal system is completely different.

redhat · 09/03/2016 12:18

It's also dominated by law graduates who haven't found training contracts. I'm afraid you'd be of little use with no legal knowledge whatsoever.

TheFormidableMrsC · 09/03/2016 12:37

redhat...yes I get you. I am not looking for a new "career" as such, I have a very young ASD child and I am 47. It is something that interests me. I self-repped through a year of ancillary relief proceedings with quite astonishing success thus I don't have "no legal knowledge" at all. Far from it, I had to learn. If I could apply that and be of use to others, that would be great.

sassymuffin · 09/03/2016 16:53

DD is in her first year at university studying law and has her heart set on a career in commercial law. The competition for second year vac schemes already seem seems fierce. She has managed to secure some first year access schemes with a couple of city law firms but even the applications for these involved tests and tough skype interviews. Overall she is aware that she has a lot of hurdles to overcome before she even gets close to achieving this. She has also accepted that a WLB is highly unlikely and knows that sleep will be a luxury in short supply.

After reading this thread I am even more worried for her, does anyone have any positive stories?

redhat · 09/03/2016 17:15

There are positive sides. I really enjoy my job. I worked for many years at a large international law firm before moving to a national firm. I now run my own law firm. It's interesting and mentally stimulating and now that I have reached this level I work from home and actually have good work life balance a lot of the time (although this obviously depends on what I have on at any point in time) and I earn a lot of money. I have been doing this for a long time though to get to this stage.

HocusCrocus · 09/03/2016 18:11

Sassy - I have been reading this thread because DS shows an interest in law. Nothing I have read would put me off supporting him assuming he had looked into it well enough. He knows it will be competitive - but so are a great many things worth having.

"I think anyone who says they can predict the future is bullshitting" - this made me laugh. I am old enough that when I first started work some people were predicting that because of technology advances people would have more leisure time and work fewer hours...... .

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