WWYD re Firm/Insurance Manchester and Liverpool - hedging bets....help please!!

[cruusshed]

What should ds do here?

AAA from both Manchester and Liverpool for architecture.

Pref is Manchester but knows that he can only achieve AAB (due to knowing where he stands with his Art course work to date).

Can he hold Manchester as firm and Liverpool as insurance?

Do you think that there is any chance that Manchester will take him if he gets AAB - and if they dont would Liverpool then take him if they were just insurance?

Does anyone have any insight into previous years and what grades got thru? He has heard anecdotally from a 1st year friend at Liverpool (doing Geog) that someone they know is on the arch course with ABC -- no idea how many others are on the course without AAA.

He has no insight/info on Manchester but believe it to be a much more oversubscribed course & uni?

Should he cut my losses, not take any risks - reject Manchester and firm Liverpool with this infp?

Would Liverpool be less likely to let him in on AAB if he had put them as insurance rather than as firm?

Head that is why I started the thread really - had (through one anecdote) believed that he had more chance with a dropped grade at Liverpool rather than Manchester....and was considering advising him to reject the Manchester offer on that basis and firm Liverpool. But as he actually would be happy at either (but not keen on the two logical insurance options) I think he needs to be aspirational and take a punt.

myred my concern about calling now is that it might be seen as negative and backfire - he will be anxious and I am struggling to see how he can present his situation positively - ie Art not gone as well as expected - now not possible to make your offer.....

cruusshed I think if he's happy with either then that's ok. I also thought my DD would be happy with either too. She's usually very accepting and resiliant.

She was told at another uni that they take all the firm people who make the grades then those those with a dropped grade then possibly those free ones who have insured them with grades then those who have dropped etc. In that order.

Hi Op. This is for another subject but my DD dropped a grade last year and was still accepted by both her firm and insurance who had wanted the same grades. This was Manchester and Birmingham. She had decided to take the risk and put down the 2 she really wanted.

Last year DS decided he didn't like the universities that had given the lower offers. I rang the three that had offered AAB and explained that he really liked their course and didn't like his lower offer places. 2 of the 3 told me the minimum they would probably accept based on previous years.

It sounds to me that his heart is really saying, firm Manchester, insure Liverpool, and if neither work out, foundation art course plus probable part time job = money and more maturing.

My DS took a year out unexpectedly following results day, and I believe it was definitely the right thing for him. He was also young in his year, and the maturing alone was beneficial. Good luck to your DS.

I think, maybe, it is more usual for a university to take an insurance student with grades than people with lower grades who firmed. The people with the grades are likely to be the more reliable, academically, and keep the university as selective rather than recruiting. The ones with the grades also keep the A level points score per student looking better in the league tables.

boj - I think that makes total sense. The only clink of light here is that for this subject, architecture, after applicants clear the ref, predictions, ps hurdles - they only make offers based on a portfolio created against a task that they set, which is a greater indicator of success on the course (ie creative thinking) than academic A level grades as the course is not classically academic. Hoping that if he drops the grade they will look back to how they rated his portfolio.....

If he is only going to get AAB (you know what I mean by 'only' - fab results) then neither needs to accept him and he could have to go through clearing.

Plan B would be to take a year out to do an Art Foundation and reapply to the same list hoping to get in to Manchester/Liverpool/Sheffield. He is not 18 until end of Aug so it would not be a big deal.

Check on the funding for this, he may get it based on age, he might not because he will already have a 'Level 3' qualification.

Thanks sash - that is a good point - "people" have told me because he is under 19 the AF would be funded - and I have taken this at face value - but I need to get clarification and confirmation on this.

Link to NUS on funding, it looks like only a first level 3 is automatically funded

www.nus.org.uk/en/advice/money-and-funding/im-a-student-aged-19-years-old-or-older--what-further-education-funding-can-i-get-in-england/

thanks sashh for that link - he would only be 18 when he started an Art foundation and still only 18 when he finished it - so I think he would be OK?

Fellow Mum of Architecture applicant here and interesting to read your post. We have done a lot of agonizing over which Uni's to apply to and now in the process of deciding on Firm and insurance. I wonder have you or your ds been to visit any of the Uni's he's had offers from either before applying or to the post offer days?
Last Summer we visited quite a few at Open Days, Sheffield Manchester, Newcastle, Northumbria, Oxford Bookes and Huddersfield. We started off initially with grand ideas of applying to Bath, Sheffield all RG and top 5 Uni's, however from stalking here and the Student Room (and the resultant less than sparkling AS results!!) we decided to leave the highly competitive Bath etc alone. He hated Manchester when he went on Open Day, found the lecturer uninspiring at the presentation and he wasn't impressed by the department. Sheffield too close to home (and again AAA) He too is likely to get AAB rather than AAA (altho you never know!)
So we visited Newcastle and Northumbria and we were very impressed with Northumbria...has your ds really checked it out or just dismissed it because it's not RG? It is in the top 10 consistently for Architecture (beating Liverpool and Manchester often), facilities are fantastic, lecturers are so positive and really care about their students and most of all student satisfaction with the course is well over 95%, again significantly more than Manchester and Liverpool's (complete university guide and Guardian guide) Kent also is very highly ranked and is even higher ranked I believe this year. It all depends on where you live and how accessible it is for you.
AAB or there about are excellent A level results (360 points is even more attainable!), I personally don't think he needs to do Art Foundation and re-apply, maybe just thinking a little broader and doing more research as to why he really wants to go to Manchester or Liverpool above anywhere else. I have to admit at first I was very much hung up on the RG thing, but have realised with Architecture there is a lot more to it and that there's more to it than "the name" of the University.
If he fell in love with Manchester and Liverpool that's great and fine but don't dismiss his other offers as they are actually ranked higher in terms of student satisfaction and graduate employment. Just my observations, hope you don't mind me offering an opinion

Opti - looks like we have been on the same journey. I agree that the RG thing has coloured my thinking with respect to Northumbria. It consistently comes out top on ratings and even on here one poster mentioned that she recruits from there regularly. I have no doubt that it is a great place for architecture.....my thinking (wrong headed?) was what if he does not want to carry on with the profession at the end of the 3 years (50% decide this due to 4 more years training etc) - he would be better placed to get a "standard graduate job" from RG than Northumbria. However I know if he chose not to continue with architecture he would continue in a creative industry and would never want to do a commercial management training scheme.

Since I have posted Northumbria have written again to him encouraging him to come to the offer holders day....it was v flattering and personal picking out details from his PS (they may well have a software package that does this!) - but he was touched - so has decided to go along in April and will make his decision after.

He looked at 2nd tier (top 15, not top 5 as AAA was aspirational, A*AA unrealistic) - and yes he visited loads last year. He did a shadowing day at Newcastle and loved the course and the city - but as most RG were all AAA there was no point applying to 5 with the same offers - so he looked at the next best / highest rated with a drop in grades - hence Kent and Northumbria.

He has been to Kent a couple of times - course he liked, being on campus he didnt like - also bit like you with Sheffield as we are in SE it was too close to home - too similar an environment and less diverse intake that his other options.

I asked him again about why he was so set on Manchester - he said it was the other students - they were the most enthusiastic about their course. I asked my husband about the talks - he said the first one was dull and was around admin stuff but the 2nd by the course leader was exciting -- but not as exciting as the talk by the course leader at Liverpool!! but my ds is also v into music & social life and sees Manchester as really exciting and cool - so it was never going to be Kent....

Where are you with your firm/insurance decision...?

Sorry to be a bit negative here, but my DH knows loads of Architects through his work. One of the reasons for high drop out is there has been a chronic lack of jobs so the architects never actually qualify. They cannot access the final part of the training. Some students will start to think it is not worth continuing. Given this scenario, I would look at the graduate employment figures from each university and what contacts they have with architectural practices. Northumbria could do well on that front. The overal aim for an architect is to qualify. Therefore swanky facilities and course leaders who "talk the talk" is a bonus but not fundamental to success.

Definitely advise your DS to go to the offer day at Northumbria because gleaning more information is always useful. Also, I cannot see how it would do any harm to phone Manchester or Liverpool about his art, especially if Manchester has seen a portfolio. Could he ring them? There may not be an answer at this stage anyway, but if he asks "What might happen if I do not obtain an A grade in Art?" rather than a blunt "I am not going to get it" then there may be some info regarding the portfolio scenario.

Thanks bojorojo - I wonder if it is the same scenario as law - v popular course so the unis sell as many courses as they can, because they can - but in the real world of employment there is over supply with respect to the job market - so many are not able to fully qualify.....

if that is the case then it seems that the advice for law would be parallel ie get onto the best course AS RATED BY THE PROFESSIONALS / EMPLOYERS NOT the students! Food fro thought will go off now and see what the industry bodies are saying.

The talk a Liverpool which my DH was most inspired by was totally about employability and their professional contacts. I think because Manchester is such a fun city and the course/building state of the art they did have to try to hard to sell it. He has called Manchester and explained his situation with Art

• they have said that AAB would almost certainly get him thru - but could not confirm that.

Might have a new strategy now --- take a year out re-sit and apply to Bath!!....joking...he is not in that academic sphere.

did not have to try too hard to sell it....

Well final interview this week and I think the dye has been cast just await an offer or not from there, then hopefully 5 offers. One he just didn't like the vibe when he went for interview, the department lacked any buzz about it from students or staff, which was the same feeling I got at the Open Day, as clearly the two students showing us round actually didn't really like each other!! He has AAA from Newcastle, but we worry that realistically although they may take AAB in August, they may not and certainly no lower. He has 2 insurance choices one he much prefers over the other (they offered unconditional if he firmed)....but we have fallen hook line and sinker in love with Nothumbria.

The staff and students ooze positivity, they are so keen to tell you how they enjoy the course and of course Newcastle.The environment is of learning from each other rather than competing against each other. Staff seem very caring and nurturing. Facilities are amazing with the most fantastic workshop, laser cutters and vast amount of 3D printers and a really great team of enthusiastic technicians. Studio is bright, airy and your OWN desk!! Apparently a significant percentage get firsts and the rest 2:1.
It's a long hard slog Architecture and we just want him to be somewhere he'll be happy, have fun and that's how he'll fulfill his potential and make lifelong friends, which in a vocational course such as Architecture, can make your career.
I urge your ds to visit in April and I hope your industry research is proving fruitful?

....on second thoughts maybe we should have applied to UCL??? :-)

ps if he wants to study abroad,then Northumbria is a win win for him....it's so far from you it's almost classed as abroad and with the accent as well, that's almost like a foreign language....you see it's a done deal!

Hi Optisight - really good to hear that you are closing down the options. It is always about the feeling and the emotion at the end of the day. My ds was most inspired by MSA due to the enthusiastic students that showed him around - which has put it first choice. And I support this especially for a creative collaborative degree - your need those sparks of energy in the environment to motivate and excel.

Really interesting turn of events at this end....I posted this on another thread

"I advised up-thread that my ds decision on which uni to firm/insure was getting down to opportunities to study abroad as everything else was the same. Just thought I would put a call in to the department to do a little digging on their international study option to find out that the long list of options on their website refers to the post grad part only and the undergrads only have the option of two really uninspiring international unis and applications are heavily over subscribed .... so all bit misleading ... which would have directed him to firm a uni on the assumption that he could study in the US or Australia ... only to discover when he got there that this was not an option!!