switching unis

[bluerosey]

My Ds is on a challenging, prestigious course in Engineering. If he does not do as he hopes at end of year and he changed to a lower down league table course, would it be easier? Anyone know about differing standards between unis?
Also how feasible are switches? we expect him to pass - grade not sure.

Just wanting to know about options. Have heard lots of people change courses.

He likes his uni - just really high standard so it seems.

so that is why we worry. From 40% to 90%. We are awaiting January exams - two have gone well, the two hard ones we don't know yet

Looks fine - 40% is the pass mark at university. 90% is very high.

If those results are for different modules, it might be worth his while to consult his Personal Tutor or Director of Studies, to review his progress overall.

But what worries me is your use of "we" - who is "we"? If it's you and your DH, as parents, I'm afraid you really need to butt out, and let him get on with it. It's not really your business any more ...

Maths requires lower grade entry than engineering and was same in his second choice.

Go to the Complete University Guide.

11 universities have average entry tariffs above 500 for maths. 3 universities (Oxbridge and Imperial) have entry tariffs above 600 for maths.

Now look at e.g. Electrical and Electronic Engineering. Cambridge has an entry tariff above 600. Imperial has an entry tariff above 500. All other courses are below 500.

Chemical Engineering (5 courses above 500). Civil Engineering (4 courses above 500). Mechanical Engineering (4 courses above 500). General Engineering (4 courses above 500, Oxford appears only here and has a tariff below 600).

If we are talking about courses requiring several A stars, it is the courses with average entry tariffs above 500 which are relevant. Note however that (outside Oxbridge and Imperial) the top universities for maths do not necessarily coincide with the top universities for engineering. Therefore it is no contradiction that maths had lower entry tariff in your son's specific choices.

Such a wide variation of marks should be discussed with the personal tutor, particularly if there is a pattern in the lower scoring marks. (Many engineering students struggle with specific topics in maths modules.)

I don't go in for tough love. I am appropriately supportive. I also don't want to be told to butt out.

I'm clearly not used to online stuff - I just find it rude.

There are many styles of support and some students need more support than others. I would know my situation best.

I generally try not to bite back to such comments but I'm genuinely interested in getting ideas and if it is too hard hitting or rude I will just butt out of this thread.

Thank you for the many useful comments on here. I'm clearly worried and looking for some other insights.

Well, you know, it's his degree.

If you don't deal with that at some point, in my [long] experience, it can end badly.

Bluerosey - DD has just had her 1st year exams. She was told by her tutor that she just needed to try and pass them (around 40%) as a lot of 1st years don't do well in the first exams. She has exams around May & June as well and 1 of those has a pass mark of 80% . I think when they are used to getting over 80% or 90% at A level, then the low marks do come as a shock initially.

I think you are over invested in this. Part of the whole point of University is to have to get on and make your own decisions. Our job as parents is to be there to pick up the pieces but not to be involved in the decision making process. They are adults.

I worry that he is apparently seeing a decent average grade as somehow deficient. As others have said he is getting used to a new way of studying a subject he has never done before. Why does he feel he has to get top grades. It almost comes across as he sees that as his "right" and is willing to walk away if he "fails". He's not failing, there are all sorts of reasons why changing to a so-called easier course would be madness, and you are enabling him.

I didn't do an engineering degree, but did a degree at Oxbridge and came from a comprehensive where I was top of the class in most things. The shock arriving somewhere and being mediocre was enormous - added to that the work load being higher than friends at other universities and I really struggled academically in the first year. However, I worked hard in the second and third years and found my feet. I left with a high 2:1. It sounds like he is suffering from the same thing - going from being a big fish in a little pool to a little average fish and finding it hard! He needs to carry on and not give up - it will be worth it in the end.

Separately, DH has an MEng from Oxbridge and got a 2:2. It has still opened a lot of doors for him (although he left uni 14 years ago so maybe grade requirements have changed for recruiters now, I don't know).

This raises another interesting question - in the current climate, is a 2:2 from Oxbridge worth more than say a First from Sheffield in Engineering when it comes to getting your first job? Or would it depend on what sector that job was in e.g. City job as opposed to design/manufacturing ?
Or if you were on target for a 2:2 from Oxbridge would that be lower than the classification you would get from another RG university i.e. would it be 'easier' to get a better classification from an RG university that is lower down the rankings? I assume Engineering is a difficult subject as Oxford ask for AAA and Leeds A*AA (mechanical) - or is that due to it being a popular subject?
I agree with what Sometimesitrains says about the transition from being top of the class etc.

The difference in the degrees awarded by different Unis varies a lot. My DCs do stem subjects and it seems odd that some Unis only award 10/15 % firsts in subjects where at other Unis a far, far higher percentage are awarded firsts. This happens at fairly similarly ranked Unis with similar admissions requirements.

My DCs have choosen courses they like at Unis they like but strategically I wonder if they might have been better focusing on the likelihood of getting a first. I guess we won't know until they have completed their degrees and got jobs.

Changing to the same course at another uni is unlikely to solve the problem (if there is one) IMO, unless he is willing to start again from the first year. That might help but mainly because he has more time to get his head round the concepts. Having taught at higher and lower tariff universities, the biggest difference in my experience is the amount of support that is provided. There were full-time subject-specific learning support tutors available at the lower ranked uni because they know students are coming in with lower grades and need to learn how to learn and how to present academic work.

The fraction of firsts does vary but the fraction of firsts plus 2:is varies less. For most jobs the difference between a first and a 2:i isn't important.

For those who want to do research, academics know how to compare marks from different universities and in any case for many subjects a strong first is required for PhD funding.

As an external examiner, I would say there is a difference between marks at the top end (75% from Oxbridge could be 80-95% from other RG universities but this doesn't change classification) but less difference at the bottom end i.e. an Oxbridge 2:2 wouldn't automatically get above a 2:2 at another top 10 or 20 university.

So some students do get a 2:i where they might have gotten a first from another university. But it's not just about the end grade: university is about how you developed during the course. Making assignments easier and inflating grades doesn't aid students develop to their full potential, and hence harms them in later life.

Excellent advice from homebythesea

One of my foster kids did this. They swapped from a science degree 1st ranked uni to one further down having completed the 1st year last academic year.
For her it was the best possible decision. She struggled a bit academically but more that that felt so inadequate and miserable. She has needed lots of support to rebuild her confidence but is now doing well.

thanks hellsbells, Fletcher, what 2 and sometimes - your different perspectives on what makes someone feel successful and happy at uni are all food for thought.

I think grade of degree in Engineering is perhaps not totally important as there are a range of jobs that seem to spin off of these degrees. However, that being said a 3rd is probably not useful.

We will just have to wait and see how he progresses and support him in knowing his choices in the summer. Hopefully, he'll feel happy and confident enough to stay where he is - if not - there are always choices.

is that right Hellsbells - 80% for a pass mark? That seems very high.

mumsie I also enjoyed your post - thanks very much for your detailed thoughts.

Disquisitiones - that's very interesting information, thank you.
Bluerosey - yes, one module has a very high pass rate due to it being a critical part of her course. When she eventually starts working, she can't afford to make mistakes in this element.

blue I was worried I was being too blunt and harsh. The thing is I know exactly how you feel. Your DS has come to you with his problems and as mum its automatic that we go into auto pilot try and help, support and do the best we can to find a solution. You know your son the best, his personality, attitude etc so instinctively you will probably know what might work what won't with knowing what he is like. I have 2 girls I don't treat them the same they are both very different, one being a extravert has no fears and is, dare I say very gulliable and makes alot more rash questionable decisions in life, I use to tell her how I feel very bluntly wether she liked it or not. She does need stern words to keep her grounded. Shes now 24 doing fine in life. Even though we feel like a pair of battle axes, when she was at uni. If she had a problem, it was always because she had no routine and socialising was more important. No sympathy from us.

On the other hand the youngest DD the one who is struggling in 1st year at uni, is quiter and a bit of a introvert extremely bright and is a hard worker, always striving and is meticulous to detail, has structure and routine in her life unlike the older sister. So when she has a problem I know its really bugging her and getting her down. But I also know because she is a deep thinker the solutions are always to do with how she mentally thinks things through, rather than her work ethics. Once she gets her brain re tuned to a different way of looking at things so its less fixed she is fine. The problems aren't as big as she had envisaged she had just amplified them bigger than it really is. The fact is there is always a way to improving things, as long as she goes out there to seek the help and work things out and not expect immediate results. Like your DS my DD has worked very hard to get into this uni, so unless they blooming kick her out because she's not passed then there's no way shes leaving without a fight. Sorry another long post, but I really do feel all is not lost with your DS he is obviously very bright otherwise he wouldnt have got in. Uni is very personal endeavour and this is a tiny blip he's going through, he will feel better about himself when he can see the bigger picture and find a better way to deal with what he thinks is a set back. Good luck blue

thank you mumsie.

Yes - it will work out one way or another . He is bright - he can succeed either here or somewhere else.

While he does seek some help, he tends to want to be self sufficient. Another thing I have to gently prod him in. Help is out there if he asks. I am proud he wants to do it by himself but sometimes he will need things explained. I think some students are so good at getting all the help on offer.

Anyway - time will tell how he develops.

waiting in the wings, helping when you can is very hard blue I know.

I think a lot is expected in university today, a lot of pressure.

Hopefully, he'll be resilient and cope better than you fear.

I'm another worrying mum

I think there is a lot if pressure these days. He will be with others who have done well in exams also, possibly feeling he has to up his game constantly.

I don't think there is much difference in degrees at different unis to be honest in terms of difficulty and or work. Some subjects are taught and examined to a national curriculum rather than individual unis. I expect when those subjects are moderated with other subjects that will help standardise grades.

Some students even take national exams, which unis prepare them for.

It's hard standing by and watching them though.

good advice head

Pleasantly surprised my DS has done really well in first set of exams after having very mixed coursework results. His confidence is boosted.

Phew!

Phew. That's good news.

Yay well done blue to your DS. My DD managed to get good exam results too. A 1st for the essay exam, which has boosted her confidence and bumped the average up for modules she didn't do too well on in the first semester.