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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

LSE: any point applying from France?

52 replies

shockthemonkey · 17/12/2015 18:17

I have seen talk of brilliant candidates from France being rejected by LSE. I am starting to believe it.

All buoyed up having had one success at LSE last year, I guided an outstanding applicant through the same process this year. Honestly his profile was great (Bac S Option Internationale with a conservative 17 MG and 17 in maths spé). He really nailed his PS.

His rejection email says it was his PS, but I have seen so many PSs by now that I know a good one when I see it. I find it stronger than the one which was successful last year.

The poor guy is gutted (though he has great offers from Warwick and Bristol) and I am considering gently discouraging LSE aspirants next time around.

Does anyone have any success stories getting into LSE from the French system, or have any insights regarding the "it was your PS" line from LSE? It does seem too easy as a "reason" for rejecting someone.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 19/12/2015 16:55

DD wants to do Bac S Mat but we were thinking of putting her into OI for college to improve her written English, with a view to switching her to non-OI lycée so that she can concentrate on her subjects & improve her grades.

What do you all think of this plan?

CoteDAzur · 19/12/2015 16:57

"OIB is useful (more than useful) for applicants who want to read humanities and essay-based subjects (e.g. law) but absolutely not useful for applicants who are going for quantitative and STEM subjects. British universities just don't care and don't penalize applicants whose English is only IELTS 7.0 (written)."

Yes, this is what I was wondering about.

Also, only History and Geography are in English in the OI program and DD really isn't interested in these subjects AFAIK. She would much rather not have them at all, and won't be thrilled with the thought of having to study them both in English AND French.

GloriaHotcakes · 19/12/2015 17:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 17:07

If you have a good school with a good international section at hand for college, go for it. College is really boring and clever DC don't have enough to keep them busy so a programme with enriched English is a very good idea.

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 17:22

If you have a good lycee nearby that offers OIB and everything else, and a hardworking high achieving child, I think OIB is definitely nice to have.

However, you should never, ever choose a mediocre lycee that offers OIB over a really good "straight" lycee.

CoteDAzur · 19/12/2015 17:27

We have a very good lycée that is ranked among France's top lycées in terms of Bac achievements. And a high-achieving child.

Our collège is all-inclusive for this area and is consequently huge. IO section has a good reputation and is selective, so is effectively a school-within-the-school.

I'm just wondering if continuing to study history & geography (in both French & English) at lycée will be any benefit to her at all during admissions, if she does a Bac S & Mat. It seems that time would be better spent on improving her results in sciences & mathematics, if OI isn't given much importance during university admissions.

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 17:30

Is she going to be going to a public college? If so, take all the extras you can and then buy her some more, including in maths. Most private schools offer extra maths and French lessons from 6eme onwards.

CoteDAzur · 19/12/2015 17:34

Private schools around here are really rubbish, unfortunately. Their results are poor and many students are there because they have not managed in the French system. Yes, our 2 options for collége are (1) secular public school (very large, but has OI), and (2) catholic (semi-private) public school (smaller, doesn't have OI). Both have very good Bac results.

Thank you for your help. And sorry for the slight highjack, OP Flowers

shockthemonkey · 19/12/2015 18:00

Sorry, what's "Bac S & Mat"?

No worries about hijacking, I have definitely got everything I was looking for from this thread, and more. Hijacking is good.

OP posts:
hattymattie · 19/12/2015 18:17

Just coming on to say that most applicants I am aware of have been offered 16 by Cambridge and 15 by Oxford. LSE has offered 15/16 depending on the course. The only 17 offers I know of were for Modern Languages, where coming from a school where many of the applicants are already bilingual is understandable.

Agree about bac OiB for the humanities but less important for bac S. That being said - the coefficient on English can raise your bac result if you're good and I am under the impression they are, on the whole, marked generously.

GoMilou · 19/12/2015 18:35

The sixth form college I was referring to had 19 offers on the college website for the lot that started uni this year. I just checked and that info is no longer there and has not yet been replaced with actual numbers taking up places. I also did ask the college at the time and was told that yes 19 was correct. Perhaps they lump all subjects together?

CoteDAzur · 19/12/2015 18:42

"most applicants I am aware of have been offered 16 by Cambridge and 15 by Oxford."

What does this mean, please?

What does it mean to be "offered 16", for example?

hattymattie · 19/12/2015 18:51

When I say most applicants I am aware of, I mean in my DC's Parisian Lycee. The offers received from Cambs are 16/20 overall in the bac ie. mention tres bien. Sometimes for science subjects they will ask for grades for specific subjects. My DC's school will not predict higher than 16 as this risks pushing the offers even higher.

My DD did a taster weekend at Cambridge Trinity, who said they knew the nature of the French baccaulareate and that was generally their offer. This was also her offer from Cambridge 16/20 in the Bac S OIB.

GoMilou · 19/12/2015 18:58

Oh, I see you were talking about something else entirely Grin

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 19:38

hattymattie - the LI is very misguided if it refuses to make predictions above 16/20 for fear that offers will be pushed up by universities. Universities make standard offers to French bac applicants that never vary IME in a single year. Parisian non-OIB lycées regularly predict in the 18s and 19s (and 20) these days.

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 19:41

Cote - UK universities are applied to by students in their bac year. Applicants are either refused outright or given an offer conditional on their obtaining certain grades in their bac eg a Moyenne generale of 16/20, with say 17/20 in maths.

hattymattie · 19/12/2015 19:48

I know the school has visited several Uni's to sell the OiB and I guess they feel and the school makes realistic predictions and don't grade inflate. They would never predict 18/19 because then the uni can potentially come back with that offer, although I know they generally have standard offers. One lucky person did get a 14 offer for Cambs last year.

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 20:21

IME the 18s and 19s aren't over inflated - they are just the way the school and student think that the applicant will be best marketed to the university.

DSS2 (at UCL) says that his fellow French bac students have fabulous bac marks under their belt - lots of 18s and 19s for their moyenne générale and maths. They all got the UCL standard offer of 15.75 MG and 17 in Maths. Why wouldn't a school want to signal to a university that they have a great applicant?

CoteDAzur · 19/12/2015 20:36

Thanks Bobo. That is what I thought but I was confused by the "offered 16 by Cambridge" etc.

BoboChic · 19/12/2015 20:41

Something that is very peculiar about the French bac is that, although grades are higher on average Paris (in fact, by quite some margin), it is actually harder to do well in Paris i.e. Paris examiners mark much harder than in the provinces. And French bac takers in overseas lycées get particularly lucky - their grades are much higher than everyone else's.

All bac grades are not created equal. Not that English universities know or suspect this.

Needmoresleep · 20/12/2015 10:16

What may be interesting is how French (and others) perceive British courses. Experience suggests that English parents attach more prestige to where a DC studies, whereas international parents, especially those working in the financial sector, seem to be more orientated towards quasi-vocational degrees and give a relatively higher qudos to studying at the LSE or Imperial.

Obviously when a DC is deciding where to apply to a whole lot of other things go into the mix. British DC wanting to study something like economics, maths or engineering are lucky that they have a range of world ranked institutions to choose from, and with Warwick, London and Oxbridge in the mix, a varied range of University experiences on offer.

I suspect French applicants may not fully understand that competitive Universtities are looking for potential rather than simply achieved grades. Contextualisation is part of the process for British applicants, and though I don't know how they do it, I assume may be for French. Certainly if a French applicant has been to a "bog-standard" school in the provinces and has got the grades partly under their own steam it should do not harm to mention it. Universities are also aware that predictions can be of variable accurancy. DS was at a well known school who were careful not to devalue their credibility, but you read elsewhere on MN of schools routinely over-predicting. It seems that French schools may do the same.

French students may also not understand that for competitive courses the standard offer may be some way below what is effectively required, especially for students who are not educationally disadvantaged. The easiest way to identify those courses is to look on the www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?o=Entry+Standards&s=economics and consider whether predicted UCAS points match those of average sucessful applicants. Applications with actual rather than predicted grades are often easier.

Go Milou - the LSE has always been very international, and also had a very high proportion of Post-graduate students. Back in the dark ages, when I took my degree I was the only British student taking my specialist option. The demographics have changed. We had a lot of Iranians and Greeks, now there are more East Asians and EU citizens, but there is still a huge mix. The mix of British students has also changed. More ethnic minorities, more privately educated, more from within the M25. Some of this will reflect changes in London, not least property prices and perhaps a perception that London is large busy and overwhelming, and changes to the financing of higher education.

That said there are big variations in competition between courses. In 2014 for economics the ratio of applicants to places was 11.8 to 1. (I suspect the strong pound will have impacted on Asian applications, but also note that admissions advice has changed to suggest that History A level, specifically, is seen as desirable.)

www.lse.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/DegreeProgrammes2016/economics/L101_BSc_Econ.aspx

Law, which again is a course highly regarded by employers, had a ratio of 14.3 applicants to places. In contrast the ratio for maths with economics was 6.8 and entry requirements for subjects like geography are lower.

BoboChic · 20/12/2015 11:03

NeedMoreSleep - in France, applicants to HE are assessed on the basis of their school reports and not their bac grades. Potential is the key indicator for admission to the most competitive prepas. French applicants find it very straightforward to understand that they need to market themselves on potential when applying to UK universities. The issue is how best to do this, not whether it is an issue.

British families are increasingly interested in the convertibility of degrees into jobs ie the vocational factor. The internationally mobile classes are, as always, better informed than the sedentary nationals about the best way onwards and upwards.

Needmoresleep · 20/12/2015 11:18

Bobo, are you talking about France generally, rather than just Paris? A friend's son has just completed his bac and has gone straight to University. No mention of prepa, whatever that is. There are reasons why he chose to stay in France, but had he wanted to return to England I would have hoped a British University would have understood the bright child/low performing school combo. (Though I think they also had a Plan B of him taking A levels in a year at a tutorial college if this did not work.)

I am not sure other posters on this thread are members of the "internationally mobile classes". We certainly are not. Which is perhaps why we were surpised two years ago at how compettiive places at LSE and Warwick were.

BoboChic · 20/12/2015 11:40

You don't provide enough information for me to comment on the case of your friend's son, NeedMoreSleep. In France (not just in Paris), there is a wide range of HE and access goes from the highly competitive (eg prepas) to the entirely non-competitive (your local university).

BoboChic · 20/12/2015 11:43

If your friends in France are a British couple, they possibly may lack insider info on the complexities of the French HE system? HE advice is very bad in France with state schools being required by law to give pupils reams of socialist propaganda.