Accountancy?

[Horsemad]

DS2 is considering Accountancy as a career.
He's currently studying Maths, F Maths, History and Geography at A level.

Any tips please? Is it better to go to Uni and get a degree or get a job and go through the training with the company?

(Will also post in Chat for traffic).

Accountancy is a profession which you can just get trained in a accountancy practice, so save lots of tution fee. If you DS2 can get a training position in a good accountancy practice, that would be a good starting point.

However, I always think University is a wonderful life experience, it would be a pity to miss it. Of course, now with the high tution fee, it may be not so wonderful now.

I do remember a successful businessman saying he would recommend accountancy as a career as they are employed in every industry, so opens a door to work in all kinds of settings. (Probably could say the same about lawyers).

But do you need to do a degree in it? I would worry that it's a bit narrow, and it's perfectly possible to do a subject that interests you and then decide at graduation whether to follow accountancy (ambitions may change). I assume a degree course with some numeracy in it would help in applying for accountancy jobs, but I think people with arts degrees go into accountancy. That said, it would be worth checking whether a particular accountancy degree grants you exemptions from some of the professional exams, making you more attractive to employers and offering a fast-track to qualification.

I did Maths, F Maths, Geography and Physics as A levels (a long, long time ago!), then a Maths degree. If he's good at Maths, has he considered actuarial work? (I'm an actuary). Much more demanding mathematically (and study covers economics and finance), and more interesting than accountancy!

DadDadDad, tell me more about being an Actuary please!

I have a vague idea that they deal with numbers, and thought he might be suited, but I doubt he'd move to The City to work. We live in the sticks and he's a homebird, so I can't imagine he'll move counties.

He's happy to go to Uni and is currently leaning towards a Maths degree but is also talking about dropping F Maths after AS, so that might narrow his Maths degree options??

In a nutshell: working in insurance doing financial modelling with specialist knowledge. But try this: www.actuaries.org.uk/becoming-actuary/pages/becoming-actuary

If you like Maths, I'd recommend a Maths degree - once you're in the real world, it's harder to pursue an academic interest, and a Maths degree leaves open lots of career options. (Or do Maths with ...?)

Many actuaries do not work in the City. Which part of the country do you live in? (I appreciate you might not want to specify too much)

Thanks, have PM'd you.

Have replied.

Surely once your homebird spreads his wings at uni, he may not necessarily want to return to the nest, especially if the jobs are elsewhere? I'm not being critical, but isn't it time for him to research these things rather than you, and decide for himself what he wants to do?

Yes, I think he may well do that.

This is just me mulling things over, he's only just decided on the possibility of Accountancy and mentioned it yesterday.

Having just had to haul one through A levels, I'm quite enjoying having him who will just get on and do his own research on his own without any big drama!!

OP asked by PM if actuaries work from home, so here's my answer. (I hope you won't mind me posting that publically as it doesn't reveal any personal info. This way, anyone who searches for accountancy in the future will find this be and be lured into actuarial work... ).

It's not the norm, although I guess actuaries working in pensions consultancy might do it more often. I guess home-working is on the increase, but in offices I am familiar with, you would be expected to be in the office most of the time, especially more junior members of staff. (I'm senior enough that I've snaffled a laptop and do a bit of home-working...).

Trainees do generally get good study packages, typically being given one day off a week* (at home) to study for the exams (which can take many years).

*well, around 40 days per year

*publicly

Thank you, that's most helpful DadDadDad.

I'm an accountant and would recommend it as a career. The ACA qualification is very transferable.

If it were me, I would try for a training contract after A levels. If I didn't get one, then take a degree in something I loved (and not accountancy). Then apply for a graduate training contract after that if still dedicated to it.

I'm an accountant and love what I do.

I took a totally unrelated degree and graduated from Uni determined to never work in an office.
I temped for a while and then drifted into ACCA training with a firm.
I've been free range for the last 18 years in a very narrow but comfortable niche.

IMHO the best accountants are those with wide ranging analytical minds.
There is no need to do ANY accountancy qualification at college or Uni.
Any firm worth being with will give you a training contract to do

AAT (book keepers extraordinaire who keep companies ticking along)
or ACA (traditional big firm audit / consultancy)
or ACCA (like ACCA but with more international emphasis)
or CIMA (management Accountancy so no audit but good careers)
or CIPFA (public sector accountancy)

Getting a degree if its something he will really enjoy and that will give him broader horizons and good contacts is worth the debt

but if not, there are partners who took the A level route straight into firms

Sounds like a good selection of A levels. The normal route for accountants is now post-university (and for the biggest firms has been that way for years). There is definitely not any requirement or even preference for a degree in accountancy (sometimes the opposite). The big firms will just be looking for the best grads - they all have whizzy websites so you can check out what they say. A level maths would look good though as that checks the numeracy box. Actuaries though - can be a great career but I'm not sure anyone would enjoy it or even get through who hadn't done at least some university level maths.
do please note that the apprenticeship scheme doesn't actually save time or give a 'head start'. Great for diversity but not really a route aimed at those with good university prospects I think. It is only on completion of about 5 or 6 years with the company that you get onto the "graduate equivalent" level.

The normal route for accountants is now post-university (and for the biggest firms has been that way for years)

I disagree with that. There used to be a sort of 'apprenticeship' route into Accountancy but that fell by the way in the 1990s and then it was pretty much graduate-only. As University tuition fees have risen so the 'apprenticeship'/post-A-Level route has come back into fashion.
One of the big firms has even said it is leaving the exam-grades arms race and may recruit on potential rather than how many A* you have. PWC, I think.

OP's DS could always do it in reverse: get the Accountancy qualification first and then go to University afterwards then there is none of that pesky business of student finance being dependent on parental income.

Actually, that last suggestion is silly. Once you are qualified you need to keep up to date with CPD. It's pretty difficult to do that if you are off studying, especially if it's a different subject.

I went into the industry through a relatively small firm from A levels (well, BTEC, but that's another thread).

Firms are coming around more and more to this route as apprenticeships become the fashion again. If he realky wants to be an accountant that's the way I would choose first. Big firms offer very different things to smaller ones so he'd need to consider any offers he got very carefully. As a small firm qualifier myself the major benefit was being made a partner very young. I qualified, completed a two year practicing certificate period and was offered partnership immediately. Thats certainly not usual but it can happen.

However, if he isn't sure that accountancy is for him, living and studying it 24/7 is probably not a clever idea. Better he complete a degree in a love of his - maths sounds great, and decide after graduating.

At least two of the big 4 offer limited places on post A level schemes which include (funded) sandwich degrees (in accountancy) at RG universities. They also offer post A level schemes which don't come with the degree and typically will see the trainee first doing AAT before then going on to do ACA. They probably offer tax schemes too - but that's not my area so I'm not certain.

However, I wouldn't recommend either of those routes despite the obvious financial incentives available for people who wish to sell their sounds at 17 with no guarantee that it will work out and then finding themselves with a possibly limiting degree.

My recommendation for anyone aspiring to be a big firm auditor (or at least anyone aspiring to train in audit and then spread their wings and explore the many many career doors that that training would open) is to do the sort of mix of A levels that your son is doing (i.e. Some numerate subjects but at least one that requires the ability to write, analyse and - crucially - develop arguments - in your DS's case that would be history) and then to do a degree in a traditional academic discipline at a pre 92 university. Ideally one that will involve at least some modules where writing, analysis, construction of arguments etc, are key elements. A maths degree is not a bar to entry into the profession, far far from it - but it might not form the best basis either. I never recommend people to do accountancy degrees.

My position on the schemes which involve paying for kids to do degrees might change in a few years time, once we can evaluate how those kids progress, how many stay with their firms, or at least stay in the profession. But right now, I think it's a very risky proposition with no plan B potential. If the big firms were switching over to make all their junior recruitment on that basis then sure, I'd not be so sceptical - but since they aren't doing that, we will need to see where the attrition hits once these kids get to the culling stage - none of them are there yet. It's going to take a couple more years. And we will also need to see a few years of data on voluntary drop out numbers too, before we can take a view.

Sell their SOULS. Bloody iPad.

Dh qualified cima through a graduate scheme in a financial services company. Took a History degree and didn't even take Maths at A level, although he may well have taken an aptitude test as part of the recruitment process. Iirc the advantages of Accountancy or Maths degree is that you may get some exemptions from basic papers. Has worked more in Finance rather than as an accountant. Although it is perceived as steady role and one pp cited as required across all types of industry, it isn't as secure as it once might have been.

There are a lot of different entry routes now including 18 year olds as well as graduates at big 4 firms. If your son definitely wants to be an accountant then entering at 18 will save him an absolute fortune in tuition fees and living costs, although he pwrhaps won't get a fully realistic uni experience (paid accommodation and salary!). Alternatively he could do pretty much any decent degree and enter afterwards with decent results. I suggest he looks at the big 4 websites (PWC, KPMG, Deloitte and Ernst & Young) to compare the paths they offer and perhaps try to get some work experience next summer / attend events publicising the various programmes to get an idea.

Don't do accountancy at uni god no.

I would go to uni and do something he enjoys and look into graduate careers as he might change his mind

I'm a qualified accountant and would recommend the ACA route. Our firm takes people at 18 but that takes 5 years vs three post uni. Those that come in at 18 tend to struggle a bit more.

When I was studying, I got exemption off the whole of level 1 for a BSc and Maths A level.
THen had to do 9 papers of level 2 and 9 of level three

The kids with Accountancy degrees got the extra exemption of two papers in level 2

but I'd had field trips at uni

No, no, become an actuary...

(Too many accountants here, can't fight them all off...)

LOL
I was chatting to some pensions actuaries the other day
gosh they have a warped sense of humour

• ooh, good, flu epidemic and cold weather = faster deaths = better scheme funding
• pensions sponsored by fast food outlets to reduce life expectancy

You qualify faster if you join at 18 - fully qualified at 23 (5 years), vs 24 (3 years uni, 3 years qualifying) and also £40k less debt and have been earning for 3 years longer.
A degree does give you other options if you dislike accountancy.

And thanks to daddad, actuaries make accountants appear interesting.