Physics Degrees

[ShellingPeasAgain]

DS, year 12, wants to study physics. He's particularly interested in theoretical physics or possibly astro-physics with an interest in research rather than getting a high paid job in the City. (Well at this stage anyway, he's 16.) We've been researching various options and as he did well at GCSE are looking at Oxbridge/RG and other higher level universities.

Does anyone have any recent experience/knowledge/useful input on what would suit a fairly quiet and reserved but very able student? Very interested in Cambridge but he doesn't want to go the NatSci route, and had thought that perhaps the Maths/Physics option with a view to switching to physics at 2nd year would be best as he seems to be very able at maths with little effort (100% GCSE at 14 and 90% FSMQ Add. Maths at 15). Very competitive though with AAA typical offers. I know from research that the offer requirements aren't vastly different at other high level institutions so any input on culture, student satisfaction, lifestyle etc would be helpful.

A level subjects are Maths, Further Maths, Physics and German. He's been getting high 90% in all tests so far this year but we have no predictions for AS/A2 levels.

Not particularly keen on London Universities - his Dad went to UCL and didn't have the best of times and they're quite similar in temperament. I have no idea as I went to university in NZ and it was vastly different to the UK.

Many physics students are quiet and reserved, so all universities are set up for this.

Bear in mind that AAA (with possibly STEP) is just the offer - in practice most successful candidates would considerably exceed those A level scores. Most successful applicants for Maths w Physics would have at least mid 90s UMS for AS in double maths and physics. While in principal it would be possible for him to go the Nat Sci route in practice this would be very hard without another science - not having chemistry would pretty much rule him out. Why Cambridge rather than Oxford? Oxford theoretical physics is very strong and they have just launched a 4th year maths/physics programme to compute with the famous Part III of Cambridge.

Leaving aside the London universities, Birmingham and Manchester are very popular for physics and rapidly expanding. In reality though there isn't much to choose between most RG universities in terms of quality of course and research for physics. He could firm a higher offer (AAA) and then put as insurance a lower RG type university offer (AAA or A*AA) and be confident that both universities would be good for physics.

One final comment would be that if he is genuinely most interested in theoretical physics then he should bear in mind that most theoretical physics in the UK is carried out in mathematics departments, rather than physics departments. To be a top theoretical physicist it is common to study maths at somewhere like Cambridge, then do a PhD in the theoretical physics groups of maths departments. A number of UK universities also offer mathematical physics degrees which are run primarily by maths departments e.g. Nottingham, Southampton

www.southampton.ac.uk/maths/undergraduate/courses/mathematical-physics.page#overview

Thanks disquisitiones, very helpful.

He was doing chemistry but dropped it last week after speaking to the admissions tutors from RG/Oxbridge at his school HE fair who said he'd be fine without.

No particular reason for Cambridge vs Oxford apart from that he likes the city better so will look again at Oxford physics courses.

Thanks also for the info re maths/physics and theoretical physics. More to think about and for him to look into.

See if he can get on any of the physics summer camps, depending on where you live there might be opportunities at local universities on Saturday mornings. Maths competitions are another way to come to university admissions depts attention (from what I understand).

Cambridge Maths and going to lectures for both the Maths and Physics tripos in Year one are a good way of keeping your options open. You can take the DAMTP route and do General Relativity and the very mathematical stuff that won't be done so thoroughly in Physics, or Theoretical Physics within NatSci from year 2. Oxford is great esp with the decent 4th year as noted above. What's the issue with UCL - it's very strong on physics and things might have changed in a few decades? Imperial is strong and outside London there is lots happening at Manchester, Durham...

Just to say my ds was also quietish......at A Level he got 4 As...maths, applied maths, physical and chemistry. School wanted him to apply for Oxford but ds felt himself that it was too big a step....him being youngest in his school year, he is also dyslexsic. Official testing showing his English being average (got Cs and had to resit GCSE Eng language) and maths being in the superior range. Oxford would have meant crossing the sea. Ds went to local uni and after a year moved out to flat share and make more of uni life. He got a first (Hons) and came first in his graduating year of 42 students. Then straight onto a P.HD. course in Chemistry with sponsorship. I thought he would always be an academic and indeed he went to England and did the requisite research for a couple of years.
However ...romance took him further afield and he has been successful in the business sector.
Another factor in not heading to Oxford was his perception of the costs involved.
I was a single parent, no spare funds.

My DS has just graduated in Physics (4 year MPhys) from Oxford, & did mainly theoretical in the last 2 years. Now starting a PhD in the Applied Maths dept at Imperial. He's also quiet so I think that Oxford has been great for him as you tend to socialise with college friends so met plenty of non physicists. He was also able to do a German course as part of his degree. As far as costs go, I think Oxford could well be cheaper then other places as food, books, etc are all subsidised & there are generous bursaries.

Yes Oxford can actually work out cheaper as you only pay for your accommodation during the (short) terms, not over the holidays.

If you want to look at a non-RG for contrast/back up, U of Hertfordshire has a very well regarded Physics dept, own observatory, etc

No universities local enough for Saturday courses unfortunately BigGreenOlives. Will check with the school if they do maths comps. I vaguely recall something from year 7/8 but nothing since.

RogueDad - thanks for the DAMTP info. Re UCL what I understand from DH who did engineering at UCL late 70/80 is that it was very much you stuck with your course cohorts and not much mixing with anyone other than engineers. This was late 70s/early 80s so no doubt things have changed. He also didn't particularly like being in London and DS is very similar. DS hasn't discounted UCL or Imperial completely (yet to go on any open days) but not his preference. And yes, Manchester, Durham, Warwick etc are all being considered.

LadyB - thanks for a different perspective.

YetAnotherMum - what college did your DS go to and how did he choose? Are there ones which are particularly physics centred and does it matter? From what I understand lectures are all centrally based and attended by the students from all colleges, but I could be wrong! From a social POV I think the college system would really suit DS.

Decorhate, hadn't considered U of Hertfordshire so thank. All very helpful.

You can take the DAMTP route and do General Relativity.

DAMTP theoretical physics covers considerably more than general relativity. The main omission is that condensed matter physics is barely touched upon.

A lot of theoretical physics is done in maths department and/or by people with maths degrees. However I wouldn't say it's 'most'. It's very area dependent. Condensed matter theory, for instance, tends to be done in physics departments. (FWIW I'm a theoretical physicist working in a physics department, ~2/3rds of my colleagues have physics degrees, 1/3rd maths)

It's worth being aware that a lot of physics degrees aren't good preparation for a PhD in theoretical physics. However I wouldn't suggest that a would-be theoretical physicist do a maths degree for that reason alone (i.e. unless they were otherwise seriously considering doing maths rather than physics).

If he's also interested in astrophysics then Part II and III Astrophysics at Cambridge might be of interest. Outside of Oxbridge, it's worth having a look at Theoretical Physics and Physics with Theoretical Physics courses as well as Mathematical Physics (incidentally, the Nottingham Mathematical Physics course is run jointly by the maths and physics departments).

A student who's good enough to be considering applying to Oxbridge won't have a problem getting into a 'good' physics department. Even in recent years some physics departments that make A*AA/AAA offers have accepted students with grades a bit lower than this. I absolutely wouldn't recommend Hertfordshire to a would be theoretical physicist. Hertfordshire has a good astronomy research group, however studying physics there as an undergraduate would'nt be good preparation for a theoretical physics PhD (at least not without doing a specialist MSc first).

In my field of theoretical physics almost all UK educated academics would have maths degrees. I agree that condensed matter theorists tend to come more from physics undergraduate than from maths.

I also think there is considerable variation amongst UK departments. I can point to universities where the physics course is taught almost entirely by experimentalists and maths is taught by lots of theoretical physicists, and so a theoretical physicist would be way better off in the maths department. There are other universities where this is not true - Oxford has lots of strong theory in its physics department, for example.

I would agree that an AAA+ student does not need to look at somewhere like Hertfordshire - many top 10-20 physics groups were in clearing this year as there aren't enough physics students to go round. (Some departments using the lack of quotas to expand drastically is not helping.)

Physics at Queen's, Belfast was ranked 3rd for Research Intensity in the 2015 REF exercise.

www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofMathematicsandPhysics/

Also worth considering that the NatWest Student Living Index 2015 named Belfast as the most affordable city in the UK for students, with the lowest cost of living overall and strong income from part-time work.

www.qub.ac.uk/home/StudyatQueens/UndergraduateStudents/FeesandFunding/Costofliving/

OP, my DS chose Worcester by looking at www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Oxford_College_Pros_and_Cons. He liked the idea of the good quality food & being able to stay in college accommodation for all 4 years. I haven't seen any of the other colleges but Worcester is beautiful & my DS loved it there. I think he had lectures/labs in the Physics dept & tutorials in the college so I don't think it would matter which college you were at.

One of the professors tried to discourage him from doing a PhD in theoretical physics as he said that the competition for post-doc jobs was very fierce in that area, but my DS is not sure what he'll do in the future & just wanted to do a PhD in his favourite area.

Am slightly concerned re advice about Chemistry not mattering for a Physics degree. I write as the child/wife and potentially mother of a Cambridge physicist who all see chemistry a'level as incredibly relevant and helpful. I would suggest a quick call to an admissions tutor - just pick any college - to double check that advice.

It's already been pointed out (by someone who is a physicist) that lack of Chemistry is an issue for Cambridge Natural Sciences. However for Physics in general, while Chemistry is relevant it's certainly not necessary. Many Physics undergraduate students have done Chemistry as a 3rd (or 4th) A-level. Many haven't, and there can be benefits to doing an essay-based subject instead.

Just on the UCL point, I did Maths with theoretical physics there in the early 2000's and found that as long as you apply for a place in halls (at that time all first years were guaranteed a place) the socialising was pretty evenly split between course friends and those in the same accommodation so he shouldn't just be limited to classmates.

Student London is very different to 'tourist' London also, with much more of a community feel based around socialising at specific venues (coming from someone who grew up in Cambridge).