Aiming for competetive subject at top uni

[Sadusername]

My dd has just started yr 12 and wants to study law, Cambridge being the dream. She has a fantastic work ethic and has always seemed bright, but did not get any A* at gcse and has never been in the top set, so I am a bit worried for her. Her secondary school education so far has been very mixed: 2 1/2 years at performing arts school, 1 term at local comp, 1 year electively home educated, 1 year at inner city FE College doing a 1 year resit gcse course. (Although she wasn't resisting any, she was the only under 16 ) She took a few IGCSE as a private candidate. She is now at a grammar school, so the teaching and preparation should be good enough. However I am wondering if how much academic ability can develop at this late (ish) stage.

What A levels is she doing? Are they suitable for Law at Cambridge? Cambridge focuses on A levels very much, both grades and subjects.

Sorry that wasn't really what you asked. I think that students can flourish at the A level stage if well taught and motivated.

GCSEs can be stressful, overwhelming and demotivating for many.

She is doing English Lit, biology, politics and history which I think she researched to make sure they were suitable options.
She got 7 As, and a B for maths(they didn't cover) the A grade topics in her maths class. She tried to do them herself but obviously didn't quite make it. She did work hard for them.

I am hoping than passion and hard work can mitigate average ability, or that above average ability can emerge later on. I just remember an English teacher saying to me in Yr 9"she's doing really well, if she keeps it up she will get a B for her Gcse." Or her Yr 5 teacher saying only the top 20% of students get through the 11+, implying she wouldn't.

Do you think it's the swopping about etc at secondary age that has had a bigger impact, or just innate academic ability? Because if it's the former, no reason she shouldn't flourish at a-level. However I'm clueless about whether it's so competitive her GCSEs would reduce her chances even if she gets straight a's at a-level.

Honestly speaking, to get into Cambridge, I think you need to have very high ability and a fantastic work ethic. I don't think hard work and passion alone would be enough.

That said, I don't think we can really judge your dd's ability on the basis of her results so far, as she hasn't exactly followed a traditional path. Cambridge admissions tutors will be more interested in potential than in past achievements.

If she wants to go for it, then I think it's absolutely worth a try, but she definitely shouldn't pin her hopes on it and she needs to have some realistic back-up options.

My dad was a late developer, he did law in a foreign country. He ended up top of his law class (age 26) having never been the top student in any previous cohort. Prestigious career followed.

I think the short answer is: she can only try.
Would she consider a law course at a (?much) less prestigious Uni that could still lead to careers like being a paralegal?

Cambridge tend to be interested in academic improvement over achieved GCSE grades. Up to now, that has meant that if you show a good level of improvement from GCSE to AS, they're interested as it tends to corrolate well with good degree results. Quite how this will translate with AS being de-coupled from A2 I have no idea, but full information should be available early next year.

The short answer is she should give it a try, perhaps contacting Admissions Tutors at a couple of colleges she might be interested in attending to see if they can offer any advice. When DS was applying (he's due to start this year), they were fantastically helpful.

Lurkedforever1- ironically I think one of the outcomes of her educational path has been an ability to take charge of her own learning. She did both english and English lit, by herself, with online course. However, there are definite downsides. Probably huge ones. Although she wouldn't have been in higher sets, so I don't know if her grades would hAve been better.

Kampeki- I think she will go further aiming higher. But I have definitely tried to inject reality without being discouraging.

I'd just be interested if there are late bloomers who performance at A LEvels is exponentially better than gcse results would predict?

She got 7 As, and a B for maths

My gut feel her best bet would be to work like crazy to actually get her A Levels, and then apply with her A Levels in her hand. If you're applying with your A Levels in your hand, your previous exam results are pretty well irrelevant. If she applies now it's being done on statistical expectations of what people with those GCSEs go on to get, whereas if you've got your A Levels that's an incontrovertible fact. A lot of my child's contemporaries at Oxford did this: it's a popular route in private schools because it's effectively the old "seventh term entry". If she's now in a stable and supportive environment, spend two years focussed on getting the very best grades she can, then worry about admission.

Otherwise, I suspect, her GCSEs aren't strong enough to get an interview, and her predicted A Level grades come September next year may not be high enough either. If she thinks her past performance doesn't reflect her ability, she should do as much as she can to prove that.

I'd just be interested if there are late bloomers who performance at A LEvels is exponentially better than gcse results would predict?

There are, hence the existence of adjustment, to deal with precisely this scenario. But making conditional offers is based on likelihoods, not edge cases. Hence my advice above.

Ljkk- that is encouraging.

Moonax- at her school they will still take as levels, so that information will be available when she applies. When you say contact admissions tutors, I am not sure what i (or she) would ask. Would it be to explain her circumstances. Will there be space on the application to show her potted educational path to date. How were they helpful. Did they give information not on the website.?

The place she took her gcse's don't publish their results, so they wouldn't be able to see how she did in comparison to the others in her cohort. Actually she probably was one the top there ??

Bolograph- would you suggest delaying applying altogether or apply again if she get great results to places she might have been rejected from initially.

Sadusername

A bit of background. My DS was an atypical applicant, so he didn't get a lot of support from his first sixth form. He had OKish GCSE results but nothing at all spectacular (A*, four As, an assortment of Bs and a C), so it was understandable that they weren't keen to put much work into an Oxbridge application with him when they had other, likelier candidates. He then had a shocking Y12 ending up with an A, C, C, U which effectively put him out of contention for pretty much everything he wanted to do.

He badly wanted to go to Cambridge, so he started ringing colleges and asked for advice on how he should go about applying. They were helpful and realistic and told him that with his current AS he would be 95% unlikely to get an interview, but if he came back with improved results, he should apply then.

At this point, he switched sixth forms and redid the whole of Y12 with an entirely new set of subjects (carrying on with the Eng Lit he got an A in at AS to A2). That set of AS results were stellar and he applied on the back of them. They interviewed him, gave him a tough offer (presumably to check it wasn't all a flash in the pan and he could sustain that level over a year at A2) and he made it.

The point here is that the colleges want the best students to apply and don't much care what the route in is. When you put in the application, you have to fill in an SAQ (supplementary questions) and on that you can put in anything you want about circumstances and background. The application process is designed to be holistic and look at all the circumstances. If you're in doubt, I really would ask them. Get your dd to do it however, it's the student they want to hear from.

Thanks Moonax, sounds as though your son did amazingly well in the end. It does show character to keep self belief going when the doubters seem to be proved right.

Did his first set of AS level results show up on his application?

Thanks! He did fantastically and I still can't quite believe it.

You have to put in all results from all exams taken on the SAQ including UMS marks gained per module. It's a rigorous process and (warning you now!) full of time-consuming forms for your daughter to fill in. What impressed me was how thorough they were and how they really do seem to do exactly what they say they will - which is consider each applicant on their own merits. Anything else and there is no way ds would be going.

So do you feel he was a late bloomer, or did he have obvious potential which didn't materialise due to outside issues.

I don't suppose it matters really. He pulled it off!

Bit of a mixture I think. He has always been very obviously extremely bright, but not in the way that shows up in GCSEs (he found them very boring and hard to concentrate on). AS he enjoyed much more and A2 he really loved. The Y12 disaster was a combination of things. He wasn't confident with his own work style at that point, had all sorts of insecurities combined with depression and some inadequate teaching so it was an accident waiting to happen.

Retrospectively, I think having to re-do Y12 was the making of him as he finally realised how he could organise things so that they worked for him academically. If he'd done OK in Y12 round 1, I'm sure he'd still be fine and doing a degree somewhere, but it's also possible he'd have dropped out as at that point he was focussed on Eng Lit and was already questioning whether it was something he wanted to do for three years. As it is, he found "his" subject and everything just started to work for him.

Look at the Sutton Trust and other summer schools at Cambridge?

Bolograph- would you suggest delaying applying altogether or apply again if she get great results to places she might have been rejected from initially.

The method in favour in fancy private schools is as follows:

You apply to Oxbridge and one other, probably Durham or UCL. You get an interview at Oxbridge (you're a strong applicant) and either get an offer or don't, and you get a conditional offer from the other (ditto) come what may. They you either make your AAA+ offer, which is great, or you don't, in which case you re-apply slightly lower down the pecking order, but able to get the very best place your grades permit because you aren't messing about with conditional offers.

But your daughter isn't in that position, because on paper she isn't a strong applicant. You would need to take advice on whether taking two stabs at it is a good idea (ie, apply in year 13 and then perhaps again the following year) but you should not underestimate the work involved in an Oxbridge application (personal statement, marked work for submission, aptitude tests, multi-day interview). If you're trying to get the very best A Level grades you can, it's a distraction. Realistically, she will probably be turned down on the strength of her GCSEs anyway. So why not take the extra year and make the best application she can in the seventh term?

YY to Sutton Trust, Uniq, etc.

sadusername my DD is just about to start Cambridge to study Law, the whole process from personal statement to achieving an offer is arduous. I think Bolograph has made an excellent suggestion of perhaps delaying her application for a year.
It takes the pressure off your DD and really allows her to focus on her A levels without distraction at her new school.
Some A*s are generally the norm at GCSE level for applicants but this is not a hard and fast rule at all. Cambridge do seem to place stock in As results but all this will change with the new system. If your DD applies and is selected for interview she will usually have two interviews and the Cambridge Law Test in one day.
Some books she may like to read are Letters to a law student (McBride) and Eve was framed (Kennedy).

Thanks for taking the time to write everyone. I have spent a little while looking on tsr at law threads and it does make me realise how hard it would be to get a top offer at any RG uni. AS levels results will be a good indicator I would think.

OP, your DD has chopped and changed secondary education so far, so we cannot really judge her academic ability on her GCSE results.

If your daughter is fixed on Cambridge, I think that Bolograph's suggestion of applying with results in hand would be an excellent idea.

The one thing I can confirm is that an Oxbridge application takes much more time than an application to other universities. First, the personal statement has to be more carefully crafted; then there may be a test (at Oxford there is the LNAT, I am not sure about Cambridge), which takes time and energy to prepare. Finally, there is an interview, which for DD meant that she missed a week of school in December. All this extra effort takes a toll on A-level studies, and for candidates that are on the borderline of achieving the Oxbridge minimum standard it may change the result.

As an additional thought, the UCAS applications process is somehow easier for a student that is in school. I would therefore advocate making a UCAS application in Year 13 as normal, but not necessarily including Cambridge. If she gets very high grades at A-level, then take a gap year and re-apply.

And definitely do the summer courses next summer, if you can arrange/afford it.

People talk about Oxbridge as thought it is one homogenous lump.Some courses are much, much, much easier to get into than others.