Career in Law

[MedSchoolRat]

I am researching for DD (ambitious, clever, materialistic), thinking towards corporate law.

In England, assuming a "good" university, is it better (prestigious, employer prejudices, career prospects, funding problems) to

(A) Do a 3-4yr U-Grad degree in law
(B) Do a 3-4 yr U-Grad degree in a solid traditional subject, and then do a conversion course to law?

Or is law a terrible career choice regardless?

From my perspective I would say it makes little difference. If there is a subject she enjoys and as you say us a solid traditional subject and she isn't sure what she wants to do then I would be inclined to go for that subject. Just to give you background as to where I'm coming from I have been a lawyer at a magic circle firm for 14 years and am involved in the recruitment programme. There is a roughly even split between law and non law hires. Doing a law degree may give you a slight advantage in some interviews where you need to spot legal and commercial issues although the interviews are generally designed not to have a bias towards those with law degrees. Good grades, strong evidence of leadership and teamwork skills and a good commercial knowledge will serve her well on applications. If she is seriously considering corporate law then she should ensure she applies for open days and vacation schemes, fully researching the firms before she applies. I would say corporate law is hard (I know that can be said of many jobs now) - the pay is very good but the hours can be relentless (in the last year I have generally worked til 11pm every night if not later and that is pretty typical in my firm) and very stressful. Wishing your dd the best of luck with her exams etc.

Thank you

Please note OP that you are not fully qualified as a lawyer straight after a degree, it also requires post grad study and work experience.
To qualify as a solicitor it is:
A) 3 - 4 year degree in Law followed by one year post-grad at Law school with final exams. This is followed by work experience (Articles) in a law firm (or company offering such a scheme). Then you receive your practicising certificate as a full fledged solicitor.
B) 3-4 year degree in other subject followed by 2 years post grad at Law school.
So having a degree in Law reduces the study time needed by one year.
I am not sure what type of student funding is available for the postgrad study so you will need to check this. It is also much rarer these days for the Articles to be paid (they can be internships).
There is a different system for potential barristers.

Barristers - they don't do corporate law, do they?

Thanks, except I'm confused because I thought the conversion course was usually 1 yr FT, or PT 2 yrs, and with regular law degree there was no PG period.

How do most people fund the postgrad periods under A) or B)?

So Fragz how do you combine working until 11pm every night with a social or family life? Genuine question. Or do you mean working at home, as opposed to in the office?

To be honest it hasn't been the easiest. After my dd was born I went back full time but 1 day a week from home. I try to leave at 530pm at least two nights a week and put the kids to bed. I then end up working later say 12 ish as well as working on the train. I am pleased that my arrangement is now accepted as relatively normal in the firm now and most depts allow people to work from home one day a week. To be honest though I am exhausted and have recently secured a senior in house role elsewhere which I hope will give me a bit more of a work life balance. Regarding post grad - if you do a law degree you have to do a one year course called the LPC. If you convert it is two years (LPC plus conversion which used to be called PGDL but I have to admit I am not sure what it is called now). Assuming you secure a training contract with a major corporate law firm in the city before the LPC (and conversion if a non law degree) then this will be fully funded by the firm. This is the ideal route to take otherwise you are self funding and hoping you then secure a training contract which is pretty tough. The 2 year training contract (formally called articles) is also paid. RollonFriday website should give you an idea of starting salaries across the major city firms. Hope that helps!

OP : barristers practise across the legal spectrum, and as such do also practice in corporate law! ( I have a family member who is commercial barrister)

A science or maths based traditional subject could be s real advantage when applying for training contracts if your DD is that way inclined. Law is probably next best but a much smaller advantage.

DH and I are both solicitors. He did an engineering degree and was offered a training contract straight out of university. The firm paid for his conversion course and lpc.

I qualified as a barrister first so paid for my own conversion. I did it part time so I worked ft at the same time and ended up without too much debt. Friends who've done the conversion take out career development loans if not funded by firms.

catslife I'm afraid you are woefully uninformed. Articles (or training contract as it has been known for many years now) is most definitely paid- top firms pay many tens of thousands if pounds actually. However you are not like,y to get a training contract with a top corporate firm if you have not done a summer student scheme (also paid) which acts as a 2 week job interview and are incredibly competitive to get onto.

OP you need to be VERY realistic about the law as a career. There are far more law graduates than there are jobs and post grad study is not funded unless you can get sponsorship. It can be a brutal experience especially on the corporate side

homebythesea am prepared to admit that I'm slightly out of date but not totally uniformed. DB is partner in a law firm but now based outside the UK. In the country where he is based some of the work experience is unpaid and trainee rates of pay are much lower than the UK. His firm would love to take on more paid trainees, but can only afford to take on a limited number each year and competition for these training schemes is very hard.
I was trying to point out to the OP that there is much more to becoming a lawyer than merely taking a law degree. If you work for firms outside London the pay rates (at all levels) are lower than the top City firms. If you move abroad (like DB did) you may have to take a further conversion course due to differences between legal systems in different countries.

Fragz thanks for your answer - you've managed a family though! I ask because my immediate boss at a magic circle firm was incredibly depressed about her chance of a relationship and kids, but that was years ago, admittedly. I jumped ship quickly (foolishly?) because she really rattled me. Also my DD has just completed her TC in a magic circle firm and been recruited but her hours have been extreme throughout - far, far worse than in my time. She hasn't complained herself but as a mother I have had concerns. She's had the same boyfriend for five years but I don't see how these young ones who don't have a partner manage a social life at all tbh. I really hope the new job works out well - good luck!

A report in today's Sunday Times about graduate job prospects states that 29% of law graduates are not in professional jobs (not just law, ANY professional job) or education 6 months after graduation. overall there are about 200,000 graduate jobs of all kinds in the UK. There are nearly 400,000 graduates. It's tough out there (and I am terrified for my own DS in his last year at school and going through the application process now)

Catslife- you should have said you were talking about careers in a different country! Not what the OP was looking for I think.

Ambitious, clever, materialistic - sounds a good match for Corporate law. But has she also got good stamina? It is normal to work regularly to 11pm and sometimes all night. It is not for someone who needs plenty of sleep.

If that's her personality, then I'd recommend 3 year course, except if fluent in one language then do 4 year dual degree. The upside is good then excellent pay, some amazing colleagues, excitement, plenty of meals, hotels and travel paid for. But not much sleep!

I think it's getting a bit muddled across the posts, so to clarify the route in is:

Law degree + 1 year LPC if done full time + 2 year training contract (typically structured as four six month seats across different departments) then qualification

Non- law degree + one year conversion (again, assuming full time study) + LPC + training contract

It is very competitive. A good degree classification from a good university will give her the best chance.

It is undeniably well paid but at the better firms the work life balance is appalling. I enjoyed it through my 20s and early 30s but I'm not sure if I had my time again that I would choose law.

Thanks for that, Eurochick. & thanks for other replies.
And to think I didn't want DD to do something as gruelling as medicine (haha).

What I really hope is that after 3 yrs at another subject DD might go further with that rather than set narrow sights on Med/Law. But will be her choice, & she usually makes best choices for herself.

At least medics get jobs! Lawyers don't.

One good thing about a non-law degree as a woman is that it can give you a tiny bit more flexibility if you later decide to leave the profession eg after having children. Life is much longer than you think it is, I tell my girls cheerily!

I think that when she gets closer to the time of thinking about degrees, to be aware of the figures,! as others have said, there are far more graduates with law degrees than there are chances to actually be a lawyer.

It is still possible to invest a lot of time, and money in training and still not get where you need to be.

In my immediate family we have lawyers- the barrister did a non law first degree, then did graduate dip in law and the bvc - bar vocational course as it was then, masses of effort, masses of money. Then less than 10% managed to get pupillage... The final bit you need to qualify as as a barrister.

Looking at the current fees- the two courses' fees alone total between 20-30 k( depending on location), PLUS living expenses for 2 years.... So an absolute minimum of 40k to get to a stage where you still may not be sucessful (as a barrister at least). This will be on top of any undergraduate loans...

However, as with all these professions, every year many, many people are sucessful..... Think it's important that your daughter makes herself aware of the competition when she looks at her future.

All the sucessful barristers and solicitors I know, their common traits are high levels of all round ability, a very sharp mind, and ability to work long hours as needed! One of our family's barrister who qualified a decade ago is still regularly preparing cases through the night!

My daughter (corporate law like me) did a non law degree at Bristol and then the GDL one year course and the LPC - both paid for by her law firm who sponsored her for those and then was paid for the 2 years as trainee £40k a year or whatever and works for that firm, high pay, long hours although the hours do come and go. Soimetimes it's longer than others. She did a week to 4am every day a few months back. My other girl is now an in house solicitor. Her hours are not quite so bad. Although 2 second ago she called me from NY where she is on business walking to her first meeting and it's something like 6.30am over there. She is having a great time too. They and I bo th love it and yes the money's good too. One of their brothers might do similar - non law degree, then hopefully law firm sponsored GDL and LPC.

I read law. I adored it even at 17.

About half or slightly over of trainee solicitors do not read law. one advantage of not doing law is that it is easier to get into good universities if you do a subject with easier entrance requirements whereas you might not get into that institution if you read law which is very competitive. Better your good degree at Bristol say than law at London Met. The university chosen matters as of course do your grades.

It's a lovely career. Good luck to your daughter. I hope to do another 30 years in it.