Not in the Oxbridge group

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

DD2's college have decided that to be in the group that gets to go on Oxbridge open days, access early help with planning an application etc, a student needs to have at least 7 A*s.

Is this a bit harsh? My DD has less but obtained at a school in special measures. I would expect her to get three As at A level; her A*s were in the subjects she is taking. I would have liked her to at least give an Oxbridge application a bash.

Ds's peers seem to have spent an awful lot of time haring round the country visiting various universities. I know it's a very important, not to mention expensive, decision, but from what I've observed it all seems very parent driven (literally).

Otoh perhaps ds's way is not the best either, which is choosing a university based on the store locations of Forbidden Planet.

Back to OP, ds's school said that anyone could have a go at Oxbridge, but the person dealing with it would have a serious talk with all interested parties and give them a realistic opinion on their chances. For Classics (particularly non Latin/Green people) you definitely have to demonstrate a keen interest (summer schools, visits to ancient sites etc), otherwise the admissions people might definitely smell the whiff of someone thinking this was a back route in.

Green people? Environmentally-aware Martians, perhaps... I meant Greek!

I'm totally rooting for your daughter too Tinkly - for Oxbridge or for whatever path she wants. I hope one day you'll come back and let us know how she gets on.

She should definitely get in touch with some Classics and/or Admissions people herself and get some advice. An Open Day is an open day, isn't it, not a Closed to Everyone But Groups day? All the best to her.

I hope WordFactory is around- possibly newly named? She is the expert when it comes to Oxbridge entrance............

Those are super results. She still had plenty of time before she needs to start ruling things out.

For Classics (particularly non Latin/Green people) you definitely have to demonstrate ...

You definitely don't Obviously you have to show interest, but you don't have to go crazy.

(Forbidden Planet in Bristol is just along from Cosmo, iirc, which was another important box to be ticked for my daughters!)

The paragraphs below are from the applications section of the University of Cambridge website. I think there's often a temptation - when something is competitive - for there to be a kind of mythology. The idea that there are secrets which are shared among insiders, and/or which can be bought at a price. From my experience with a daughter who has recently been through the process, the Cambridge application/admissions process is exactly as described on the site:- Here's the relevant info from them:-

The facts at a glance

Cambridge does not require a minimum number of A* grades at GCSE.
Cambridge does not require 90 per cent in every AS/A2 unit.
Cambridge does not require an average of 90 per cent in every AS/A2 subject.
Cambridge does not require an average of 90 per cent across their three best or three most relevant A Level subjects.
Cambridge is comfortable with applicants retaking a few AS/A2 units.
One of the strengths of the Cambridge admissions system is its ability to assess all applicants individually and to take account of individual circumstances. If you have further queries or wish to discuss any particular circumstances, please contact the College to which you're considering applying.

There is only one certainty in the Cambridge admissions process:

if you don't apply, you won't get in!

Cambridge classics department suggest the following essay competitions: link, submitting an entry to any of these would help demonstrate your DD's interest and wider reading. The FAQ page here suggests that entrance requirements are not set in stone - if your DD can get an interview then that will be her chance to shine.

If she has a spare slot on the UCAS form then I think she should definitely give it a go - I'm not sure how much support she would need from the college other than help with reviewing her PS and giving her the best possible references?

My ds wasn't in the Oxbridge group in lower 6 th.
His GCSEs wasn't a string of A stars.
He was the only child in his year to go to Oxbridge.
Read this book
So You Want to Go to Oxbridge? Tell Me About a Banana (Oxbridge Applications) Paperback – Illustrated, 30 Jul 2014
It was very helpful.
Cambridge put far more emphasis on AS results rather GCSEs - I think Oxford put more emphasis on GCSEs.
Contact the undergraduate admissions office of the colleges you are interested in - they were very very helpful.

Cambridge advised you fill in the extenuating section in the application form.
Good luck

My DD was not chosen for the Oxbridge group at her independent school and she had 9 GCSEs at A*. They were wrong! She did all the work and found out what she needed to do. We had the same stuff about UMS scores. We ignored it. She had good enough UMS in what she wanted to study, was confident, can write well so her submitted work was good, and could do the tests Oxford administered prior to interview. She was also able to think sensibly about the questions they asked at interview and hold a conversation about the topic and work things out as she went along, justifying her answers. The Banana book is a waste of time. I bought it. They will ask you questions on your subject. I hate young people being written off for no good reason.

Lots of schools have a cut off at 6 as. However there is no harm in trying but I would look at Cambridge. I know a few who have got in recently with 5 As but convinced the admissions they were brilliant at one subject! Also, I think there is a list of schools at which the lower offer is aimed. Although her previous school might be on it, I doubt the A level college is. Many independent schools select their Oxbridge students at age 13/14, not 16.

Another thread is suggesting a young person goes for Law at Cambridge with no A*s at GCSE at all. Now that is a very, very tough call!

Are independent schools more inflexible than state ones, I wonder? Or is there just a lot of individual variation? (I wondered if some independents might be trying to 'sell' their percentage of successful applications, and therefore doing their best to weed out anybody who they felt didn't fit their own criteria.)

At my daughter's school - not fee-paying - they did put on some extra sessions at the start of Y13, for those considering putting Oxford or Cambridge on their UCAS form. But I'd have to ask her if anyone was actively discouraged from joining. I think the process worked more the other way round. People who'd done especially well at AS-level were probably asked if they were considering applying, and might then be encouraged to do so.

I went to Cambridge with 4a*, 3a, 3bs at GCSE. Because I went to a school that didn't send kids to oxbridge I was offered 2As and a C at A-level (I did end up getting 3As). It's worth choosing your college carefully, some take a lot more state school kids than others.

I've just read the other thread. For once I didn't see people saying, "Go on, have a go, it's only one choice on the UCAS form!"

And the Cambridge admissions piece is a bit disingenuous. No, they may not require 12 A*s or 100 UMSs, but if you look at the statistics on who got in a large proportion of successful candidates do have a stellar academic record. Of course institutions don't want to discount clever outliers, but to take what Cambridge says to mean that actually anyone can apply with completely indifferent grades and stand as good a chance as the next student is rather wishful thinking.

One of my daughter's friends got offered a place at a Cambridge college last month, despite having a bad time in one of her chosen A-level papers and ending up with an overall B grade.

To me that suggests a willingness to look at individual circumstances during the admissions process.

There are also very high achieving candidates who get called for interview at Oxford and Cambridge but are not offered a place. One of my daughther's friends was in this situation. (She ended up getting 3 A* at A-level and a place at another highly sought after institution.)

I'm no expert, but I do take some of the 'wisdom' of Mumsnet, with a pinch of salt!

Hello, I'm an Oxford admissions tutor and I would love to see your DD apply. Those marks are fine, especially for someone coming from a state school! Your DD's school is being incredibly narrow-minded and short-sighted and it makes me quite cross.

There are no rules saying that you have to have a certain number of As at GCSE in order to apply to Oxford. And the usual Oxford admissions offer is three As at A level - no As needed.

And Classics are very keen to admit students from state schools, as others above have said.

I just ran an open day info session in my college (not in Classics, but in a different humanities subject) and as usual, almost all the students visiting were from independent schools. It's frustrating as we would so like to see a range of applicants from different backgrounds. I highly recommend open days, by the way, because it's a chance to chat with admissions tutors, ask questions face-to-face and get advice about all the different stages of the admissions process and about what the course will be like. The UNIQ summer schools are great too.

Please tell your daughter to apply! at her school.

There are no rules saying that you have to have a certain number of As at GCSE in order to apply to Oxford. And the usual Oxford admissions offer is three As at A level - no As needed.

For maths and sciences the usual offer is higher than 3As - it is two A stars and one A for maths, for example. (Not relevant to OP but maybe relevant to other readers.)

And for the other subjects while the offer may be 3As you are more likely to get an offer if you are predicted/achieving above 3As: 46,000 UCAS applicants got AAA+ in 2012, so being predicted/achieving 3As is no longer enough on its own to be a strong candidate for Oxford.

There is definitely no rule that you need a certain number of A stars at GCSE; nobody has said this above. But (certainly in STEM) filtering does tend to drop most of those without at least 5 or 6 A stars; some colleges openly admit this on their websites.

I think there is sometimes a difficult balance between not being put off applying and looking up admissions statistics to understand realistically the chances of success. OP's college seems to err too much on the side of putting people off applying.

On the other hand I see a lot of applications (for STEM) from applicants whose predicted grades are around or even below the standard offer and whose GCSEs/AS UMS etc are not strong. I do wonder whether these applications are worth it, when the success rates are very poor - how do these candidates feel to be rejected with no interview?

Why can't she go to the open day independently? That's what I did. She doesn't need the school to hold her hand.

She really should go and visit - going to an open day is a great idea. Then decide if she wants to try or not.

I think her college is being too snotty. And should broaden participation, your DD would be in the "high fliers" group at any college/school around here, and they all get lots to Oxbridge/Medical school each year.

Fair enough, disquisitiones, I understand that the requirements for STEM subjects are different.

However, the Classics requirement is 3 A's:
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/classics

(Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on 'Next' to see the course requirements.)

In Classics (as well as in my subject, which is Modern Languages), a candidate with a mix of A and A* GCSEs, like the OP's DD, would certainly be invited for interview, unless another aspect of her application was very weak (say, she received a poor score on the Classics Admission Test). In other words, if she were 'desummoned' (not invited for interview), it would be for some other reason, not because of the GCSEs.

Even a 'B' GCSE thrown in would not necessarily be a problem, if it was a B in a subject unrelated to the one the candidate wanted to study.

I'm concerned about potential excellent candidates being put off applying because their schools don't think they're good enough. Schools are often on the mark, but not always. I'd much rather that interested candidates went ahead and applied and let the admissions tutors decide.

Another link about Oxford requirements in general:
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/entrance-requirements

And a list of A level requirements for the different subjects, so you can see which subjects ask for A*s and which don't:
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/entrance-requirements/level-offers

I went off and asked my daughter what her school had done as I realised I wasn't sure. (Iit's a selective state school, where a lot of young people apply for competitive universities and courses.)

She said people were neither encouraged nor discouraged from applying to Oxford and Cambridge. In Year 12 they had put on some optional sessions for candidates whose UCAS applications might well involve being asked to attend an interview. (This would include applicants for medical courses.)

There was no particular pressure to attend and some people would drop in and out of the series of sessions, sometimes go to accompany friends etc. I think one of the activities involved students role-playing interviews with each other. At some point during the year, a number of the Y12 students might decide, this isn't a process I want to carry on with.

No open days, courses at the universities themselves etc, were organised by the school - though I daresay information was made available to anyone who wanted to do this independently.

It only became more structured at the start of Y13, when people would get targeted support with UCAS forms that needed to go in early, additional personal statements etc, plus a couple of practice interviews from staff. (My daughter refused to have one of these as the staff member was someone with an admin rather than a teaching role, and my daughter couldn't see this being helpful.)

I think the school seems to have got it about right.

Your DD's school sounds like it has a very sensible modus operandi, Marianne.

Around here I know the "Oxbridge" lectures with people from Oxford and Cambridge speaking about admissions are open to all - they are organised for all the local schools and colleges (as part of the local 14-19 federation thing).
At DS's old school they run special sessions for those aiming at Oxbridge or Medical School - which includes making sure they know about special tests they might need.

Marianne I would point out than in many cases school admin staff are women who are overqualified but want term-time only work while their children are young. That person may have been involved in the interviews due to their valuable experience in a prior career.

I think the point is that my daughter was free to choose - throughout the process - as to which bits of the help available to her, would be useful.

She was happy to have a practice interview with somebody in her chosen subject who she trusted to give her specialist, up to date feedback. And not happy to be given a mock-interview by someone whose qualifications she knew little about.

As she ended up with a place at the university she applied to, the overall process - and her choices as to how to make use of it - seemed to work well. I had almost nothing to do with it, other than offering vague parental support from the sidelines.