Questions for open days

[HisMum4]

DS wants to study Maths at uni. All AS grades including Maths and FM are A; so far so good.

We are going to Southampton open day this Saturday. This will be a first time experience for both of us. There is a lot for DS on the autistic spectrum to take in, with the crowds and all the excitement it might be difficult to separate the message from the “noise”.

The main issue for DS is whether he will cope well with the course, the teaching style and especially assessments, as well as whether he will cope with the environment. But this is very intricate, I am not sure it is easy to judge from the mega marketing event that I imagine open days to be. How do you know without any prior experience whether the course is right for you or you are right for the course, where the underwater rocks are? Not to mention my fear that DS’s first instinct might be to take cover from the crowds and not being able to appreciate the positives.

So I would appreciate some pointers as to what to look for, where to focus, whom to talk to as a priority, and what questions to ask.

I know some questions should be about the course modules and assessment methods, but I am afraid even for me the answers might not mean much .

I agree open days are an overwhelming scrum. Universities also have 'offer holder' days so, as the name suggests, only those who have offers from them can attend - so not as many people but still a bit of a scrum to be honest.

The main thing that my DS found most useful about open days was to attend a lecture. On the basis of the lecture alone he ruled out one university which had been a firm favourite.

If I was you, I would contact some of the admissions/maths departments at potential places and see if it would be possible to visit and meet someone on days other than the official open days. Emailing now to ask what support your ds might be given could be a starting point anyway.

I agree with stonecircle both of my DC found the most enlightening part of the open day was the subject talk and sample lecture. All else comes second, the accommodation, the student experience are important but those talks will help him to know whether the Maths course is right for him.

Agree with going to subject talks. Also, be prepared for him to totally rule out a Uni on just 'a feeling' - my DS did this with Durham and B'ham; hated Durham on sight!

My DS is starting at Soton later this month!

Go to a subject lecture, plus make a beeline for a Student Services sort of stall, where you can ask about learning/disability support. They'll usually be in a department called a variety of things: Student Services; Academic Services; Counselling: Student Support; Well Being

Be aware that there's usually limited space in the lectures, so he should go with just one other person. At my place we usually prefer to talk to just the prospective applicants, but you could probably explain he needs someone there to help him process.

ds3 is also on the spectrum and made the open days experience a bit like an interview process for the unis. It reminded me of the Rosie project - if you've read it you'll know what I mean. He devised a list of things which were most important to him giving each criteria a score to be transposed to the humongous spreadsheet back home.

The -test- deciding criteria ranged from things like people asking his name before answering questions, aspects of the course, methods and frequency of assessment to things such as how smelly the toilets were in the halls of residences and the appearance and state of decoration of the buildings. One uni which has managed to pass the selection test by the skin of its teeth, picked up a big black mark simply for having neo-gothic architecture because it resembled school! I was instructed to score each place too - 2 good points and 2 bad points for each place we visited and results not to be disclosed until we'd been to all the places on the list

My advice would be to make sure you get there early so there is no rushing around, try and stick to the front of any tours so that the group doesn't seem so big, sit at the front of any lectures or talks so that your ds doesn't have any visual distractions making it easier to focus on what is being said, (consider taking a note book so you can jot things down if you think he may not be taking it in), make a point of seeking out the student support people even though your ds may never access them (I found the black mark uni had a really helpful leaflet about the support on offer specifically to asd students -ds is adamant he doesn't want to disclose his autism but I found it reassuring nevertheless) Do be prepared to spend the whole day there, taking your time, do visualise a map of the campus before you go so that your ds doesn't get anxious about where he needs to go and be sure to head for the library when the sensory overload gets too much.

A note about asking people's names: on an average Open Day (on a Saturday & all day starting at around 8am to prepare, none of which I am paid for) I probably talk to around 100 minimum prospective applicants. I rarely ask their names, because I'm usually fielding several sets of questions at once, and from parents as well ...

Thank you everyone for your thoughts so far, which are all very helpful.

Any questions autistic aplicants ought to be asking?

Eatyourveg, thanks for reminding me where the pressure points are , I am laughing, in a very nice way, of course.

We also have a mental scoring card. I keep hoping my DS will be able to focus on academics in choosing the university … but the important factors on top of his mind are the cosy-ness of the place and indeed the toilets…. a windy, smelly cold place is a No-No… LOL, The spreadsheet indeed would help to balance things and focus on the important.

MultiShirker, Aspies just have their particular things about the habits they have formed

The broader question is whether one could indeed judge whether the faculty is able to focus on students as individuals by observing a person doing the talk? There might be no correlation,

I think ds was lucky then as I think probably everybody (the student ambassadors didn't count) asked his name when replying to a question. It may well have been because we always waited until the crowds had dispersed a bit and there weren't others all vying for the tutor's attention so ds had a chance to have a 1:1 chat with space around him.

The course tutor in one place which didn't pass his selection test, actually took him over to a coffee table and sat down with ds to chat to him - the acoustics of the hall were dreadful so I was grateful on ds's behalf. That place picked up its biggest black mark for sitting on a major trunk road and the noise of motor bikes is something ds is acutely sensitive to.

When ds1 went through ucas it was all about the course content and hardly anything else. With ds3 whilst it is an important factor, it only comes into play once several other things have been accounted for.

At our open days it is always best to come late in the day to avoid crowds. Most people seem to arrive at or before the official start time and get huffy because the stand isn't fully staffed half an hour before we kick off. In the afternoon the tours are undersubscribed and you don't need to elbow your way across the room. I'm afraid I would completely fail the asking names test, I will be talking to a stream of people, usually with a queue waiting. If you want a proper, long one-to-one chat it would be better to get in touch with the department and arrange an individual visit, we are usually able to provide one.
And everyone, please don't queue up then ask me "what can you tell me about Chemical Engineering?"- I can talk about it for hours but I have no idea what you want to know. Usually I waffle and the prospective student glazes over because they want to know about careers and I am talking about how thermodynamics is the key to life or vice versa. Ask actual questions, with concrete answers and we'll all be happy.

I read on a few websites that open days are also where prospective students make the first and right impression and make themselves 'noticed' by the admission tutors and all that... hmm... I am not sure at this first instance DS will be completely able to put his best foot forward IYSWM, he is in 'tasting the water, observing/ taking information in mode.

Is it acceptable for DS to admit that he is exploring and trying to understand what course is right for him, without worrying how to sell himself?

I understood from a different thread that there is a risk for students with ASD to get 2:2 degrees . What is driving that? Could anyone offer any insight or share experience regarding the teaching / course / assessment factors that make student on the spectrum succeed or fail? Are there such academic factors or is it all down to social life and the sensory environment. Can we ask this question at o[pen days?

It is a myth that students have to worry about getting noticed by admissions tutors. Nobody is going to be rejected by Oxbridge, medical schools etc based on open days. Frankly there are so many students at open days that one wouldn't even remember in detail the behaviour of one student.

Most maths courses (including Southampton) offer to all students with the correct predicted grades in any case - it is selection by grades rather than by interview, except at the very top half dozen places.

Lots of ASD students get good degrees in STEM subjects including maths. One useful thing about maths degrees is that there generally isn't much or any group work, which ASD students can find harder.

MultiShirker, Aspies just have their particular things about the habits they have formed

Ahhh, well that makes sense. Although I'd hate to think that someone ruled out a course only on the grounds of not being asked his/her name. HOwever it sounds as though he has a complex algorithm.

The broader question is whether one could indeed judge whether the faculty is able to focus on students as individuals by observing a person doing the talk?

Some things your DCs should look for in the prospectus, the talk, any conversation you have with current students and/or academic staff:

Go to the Departmental website, rather than the prospectus. Have a look at the information there for current students. Some things will be password protected within te University's firewall, but a lot of stuff won't be. So it's likely that you can see information about modes of teaching & examination for current students.

During the subject talk, prospective students should pay close attention to any information about course structure, compulsory modules, options etc etc. One place I worked at, we did this in great detail, but still had students arriving whining "uuuhh I didn't know I had to do thaaaaat" It's OK not to realise; it's not OK to whine at me as though I've tricked you.

Ask in the question time at the talk about particular things re teaching & assessment: when are the exams? Are there unseen exams? What other types of assessment? What sort of individual or group work is there?

Ask about the core compulsory modules: how are they taught? Is there a seminar? Are there tutorials? How many lectures?

People routinely ask about contact hours. This is the wrong thing to ask. It's a blunt instrument and actually tells you very little. Contact hours are not a good guide to "quality" and actually, lots of contact hours may actually suggest a lower-level course, than fewer (the extreme is Oxford, where contact hours can be as low as the weekly one-to-one (or two) tutorial/supervision over 3 x 8 week terms, as lectures aren't compulsory).

Ask about the types of teaching instead, and about the balance between independent work and face to face teaching. If you asked me that, I'd say that in my modules, I assume that you spend at least one full day (12 hours) preparing for my 3 hour seminar ie that for every 'contact' hour you're doing around 4 hours preparation. That's my rough estimate of the workload I'm asking for.

If your DCs have the opportunity to speak to current students, jump in!! At my place, we pay ours in biscuits, so they're doing it for love. And parents, at this point step back. It's increasingly not your business. Go on a tour of the accommodation, go for coffee, have a wander in the art gallery or museum (lots of universities have wonderful little gems of galleries/museums).

So if your DCs look for these sorts of things - to get a feel, not hard & fast stats! - then they should be on the way to a good sense of how the teaching in a department is done, and more importantly, what the ethos is. And remember, we're academics, not sales people, so please try not to show us quite so overtly as parents sometimes do, that you think we're snake oil merchants. We're not. If we sound like we're selling our course, it's probably because, funnily enough we really like working in it, and believe in the value of what we offer.

Oh, and everything Chemenger says.

Especially the impossibly broad questions: 'Do you think I should do this course?" or "What degree should I do?" or "I don't know what I want to do, but I thought I'd come & use up your time asking you while there's a long queue behind me & I can see you're too polite to tell me to go away "

*Contact hours are not a good guide to "quality" and actually, lots of contact hours may actually suggest a lower-level course, than fewer (the extreme is Oxford, where contact hours can be as low as the weekly one-to-one (or two) tutorial/supervision over 3 x 8 week terms, as lectures aren't compulsory).

Ask about the types of teaching instead, and about the balance between independent work and face to face teaching. If you asked me that, I'd say that in my modules, I assume that you spend at least one full day (12 hours) preparing for my 3 hour seminar ie that for every 'contact' hour you're doing around 4 hours preparation. That's my rough estimate of the workload I'm asking for.*

I agree that contact hours are a red herring but things are different between social sciences (the field of MultiShirker, I think) and mathematics.

Any mathematics course will be offering about 12-16 hours of lectures, about 3-4 hours of tutorials and the rest (16-20 hours per week) independent study. This is as true for Oxford as everywhere else. The main difference is that they can do the tutorials in groups of 2 students while outside Oxbridge nobody has the money to do this, so tutorial groups are a bit bigger.

Yes, my advice was fairly general, so the specifics about Mathematics are useful.

In general terms, I'd be asking how large the groups are - although none of us has the extra money that Oxbridge get for the tutorials with only 2 students.

How about presenting at the students union and seeing if you can talk to someone who has done the course? You might get a more honest answer.,

Lolimax not sure what you mean by "a more honest answer." Do you think that academic staff deliberately tell lies on Open Days?

No sorry no offence meant. It was more about giving the op's son a more open view of the course from a students perspective. My own DD who has anxiety issues took part in a summer school. By seeing the uni from a students view she felt very comfortable in a way she didn't feel in the busy rushed open day, and is starting in said uni in 2 weeks time.

Oh yes, I see. And I would always advise that if you can, talk to current students. THey are really the best guides to what it's like as a student in a particular course, or at a specific university.

I think that's why The Student Room is so popular. Although I read it occasionally (professional curiosity) and some of the information is so so wrong ...

MultiShirker, thanks a lot for your detailed answer that for me clarified some jargon and really shone the light on how to navigate and "filter" the abundant information available on open days and otherwise.

I absolutely didn't mean to say that academics or university staff are like salespeople, and please accept my sincere apologies if it came across this way, I can see that it could be read this way, but it is not what I mean or think. I have great respect and admiration for academics, I have family and friends within this profession, although my/ their personal experience is not really transferable to DS.

My post is articulated with the lens of the autistic DS, where his response to the physical environment can impact and distort the message he could take away, as he soon will become oversaturated. I used the word megamarketing, perhaps wrongly, as I expect the event from the physical environment, presentation stand point to be a lot like a trade show, where there is an unfamiliar city and campuses, different buildings and stands and crowds and a lot of people and information from all sides that you need to process. So for an Aspie at open days, less is really more and we need a narrow focus, an Ariadne’s thread to stick to in this overwhelming maze of information. You post just provided such thread for which I am very grateful.

And indeed, sorry if my post conveys the desire for understanding beyond the face value of the information being provided, this is not at all out of mistrust towards universities, but because for an Aspie, the applicable knowledge out of the proverbial data-> information-> knowledge trio will be different, things will work differently for DS compared to a NT student. So what NT students wants to hear at an open day is not enough for the autistic DS, he needs a different cut of data and different weighing of factors.

So again I am sorry if some of the things I discuss may feel a bit odd for the professionals, they are not directed at outside people but are internal ways of coping for the DC on the spectrum

Oh, and everything Chemenger says.

Especially the impossibly broad questions: 'Do you think I should do this course?" or "What degree should I do?" or "I don't know what I want to do

I absolutely agree with this too, that would be a sad waste of everyone's time.

The question how often and when assessments are, whether they are "seen", how big the seminar/tutorial groups are and what is the proportion of time between lectures, seminars and independent learningse are extremely helpful.

I would also like to know what structure or guidance is provided for the independent learning- reading lists, pacing, deadlines, sillabus etc.

Is there anything to be aware of in terms of units?

Talking to the current students about what it's like is defenetely on the list, thanks, Lolymax