Computer science/ maths/stats - honest advice required on undergrad degree vs. conversion master's?

[pomBearPooPouffe]

Computery types, or academic types generally - please help!

I am switching fields to IT/CS because I can't get a job as an academic biologist, but there are plenty of jobs around in IT and CS/maths/stats type research & development. I have been planning to do an undergrad degree majoring in computer science, with maths and stats subjects.

However, all the CS/IT/maths people here reckon that with a previous career* as an academic biologist, I should just do a one-year master's by thesis and attend a few high-level undergrad courses in maths and computer science. They all say undergrad is unnecessary.

I think this is ridiculous, because I have no useful background whatsoever in maths, stats or CS. I honestly have no idea how any of it fits together. While CS isn't maths (except in a few areas) it assumes basic competence with things like calculus, geometry, matrix algebra etc. - most of which I've never done and have absolutely no clue about.

I did badly in the "maths for idiots" option at school (about equivalent to a B at A-level), I flunked first year maths at university (56 % in the "maths for biologists" stream, probably because I went to almost no lectures and did no assignments); and I've never done any statistics at all beyond the complete basics taught to biologists. As for CS, I've done a couple of very basic introductory programming courses (Python, BASH) and really enjoyed them. I've always been the most analytically-minded person who "gets" how to deal with data, in every biology lab I've worked in (which of course isn't saying much when you think about the analytical skills of most biologists). However, being able to understand how analyses fit together, use command-line software, and follow the first 3 chapters of a Python textbook isn't "having a background in programming", it's parroting syntax without understanding a word of what's going on.

I think that if I followed the advice of doing a masters, I wouldn't understand a word of what they were talking about in a 3rd year undergrad class in maths or CS - I can't even really remember how to do basic high school stuff like quadratic equations or calculus. I do think I'd survive undergrad maths and stats because I can pick stuff up quickly when I need to, but I do think I'd need to do the full undergrad degree to have the faintest clue what's going on.

Am i mad, or are the people offering advice just not thinking through precisely how much maths etc. they did themselves at high school level? My DH for example did university maths while at high school, as did many of his friends and colleagues - he genuinely doesn't seem to understand that there are fully-functioning academics out there who don't know how to solve a quadratic equation...

*Previous career = working in academia as a biologist since 1998, PhD awarded in 2004, postdocs for 7 years, got to lecturer level with lots of experience, but couldn't get made permanent because of lack of jobs available here, went back to postdoc-ing, hated it, gave up. Could probably get a job as a biologist if I were in the UK, USA, Europe etc., but not where I currently am, as there are too many biologists here and few jobs generally.

In a job you almost certainly won't be asked which language to use. Most places will have one or two standard languages to use. Software jobs generally involve working in teams so everyone works to the same standards. It may be that there are good reasons to use eg Haskell but if everyone else in the place uses c++ then that's what you'll use too. One reason is you most certainly won't be allowed to purchase or download a compiler.

Once someone knows how to program it is easy to pick up a new language.

PomBear could do worse than look at the research pages of her in-town MedSchool, to see just what kind of research they are doing & what skills they need. In meantime get hold of a university textbook for calculus; a good one will have a chapter or 2 on precalculus & can work thru the material.

When we hired mathematician(s) recently the software packages they knew (& intended to use) were R or Matlab. Not C++ in our group but at our institution it's biologists who would be sequencing, not medical researchers.

Statisticans in the dept. seem to mostly use STATA, SPSS & Stats-Direct around, too.

DH is in data science and he says T, Matlab and Python. Definitely not c++ or Java. Apparently the latter has poor mathematical packages.

I mean R not T

An understanding of data structures and algorithms will certainly be a core requirement. You should look at www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~jmor159/PLDS210/ds_ToC.html

to get an idea. For example one thing a computer science course would teach you is different sort algorithms and how to pick the kind of sort you need for a particular data set an data structure.

Pick a data structure from the page listed then search for implementations and compare different languages methods of implementing them, that should begin to give you an impression of how much work you will need to do.

You might also like to visit Stackexchange stackexchange.com/sites
and search for bioinformatics there. You will find people already working in the area who can help with more detail about the packages and tasks the are involved with.

Thanks for the ongoing advice, everyone.

The relevant departmental course advisor has suggested that with all due respect his colleagues don't know what they're talking about if they're telling me to do a master's and that if I am serious about moving sideways, into either data science or anything but the most basic IT job, I should do an undergrad degree.

This is in recognition of the job market being very different here, from what it's like where we came from in the UK (where the CS graduates had a relatively low employment rate, but the former PhD students were commonly millionaires from starting or working at places like XenSource or ARM). Here, you do CS undergrad if you're going to be a computer person - degrees are far less expensive than the UK, and there's not really the economy to support the kinds of companies that might employ school-leavers over graduates.

Just compiling a list of what the suggested courses actually contain - any advice on that (when i post it) would be very gratefully received

Suggested progression of courses, divided up by summer session/ semesters 1 & 2. Where subjects aren't in correct year order, they're designed to be able to be taken out of order. The final semester is to make up the points requirements of the degree rather than because those subjects are necessary.

Summer 1
-General programming (First-year CS)

Semester 1
-Programming and Problem Solving, Intro to data structures and algorithms; (2nd year CS)
-Computer Architecture and Operating Systems (2nd year CS)
-General mathematics (1st year Maths)

Semester 2
-Algorithms & data structures (2nd year CS)
-Networks, and the Internet (2nd year CS)
-Database Theory & Applications (3rd year CS)

Summer 2
-General statistical methods (1st year Stats)

Semester 3
-Regression and modelling (applied statistics, 2nd year)
-Design of research studies (applied statistics, 2nd year)
-Advanced database topics (4th year CS)

Semester 4
-Object-oriented programming (3rd year CS)
-Computing for bioinformatics (3rd year CS)
-Algorithms and data structures (2nd year CS)

Summer 3
-Effective programming (3rd year CS)

Semester 5
-Statistical computing (3rd year CS)
-Statistical Data analysis for bioinformatics (3rd year CS)
-Network management (3rd year CS)
*
Semester 6
-Theory of computing (3rd year CS)
-AI (3rd year CS)
-Software engineering (3rd year CS)

Meanwhile i'm off to do some analyses of old biology data, using R.

I'm not an academic or any kind of expert in biology type things. I have worked in IT for over 20 years though. And I got a D at Maths A Level.
I did an IT related degree but in practical application it hasn't really been useful.
I applied for grad programming jobs and aced an aptitude test and got a job. I've done various things over the years and find it enjoyable.
Having interviewed applicants over the years I tend to prefer people who've shown a logical bent and can talk about experience rather than theoretical concepts. Could you find an intern position rather than doing a further degree? I'd prefer the practical work experience.

Thanks Giddy - that is a very valuable point, but see point 2 posts up about lack of jobs/ job market being very different here.

Internships don't exist in this city (to which I am tied by my husband's job, and in which I'd like to remain for the forseeable future, because i've already done the working overseas thing and it was a major mistake).

Obviously, there are small programming/IT jobs available to be done remotely, and I will try to pick up some of these once i have some idea of what I'm doing. At the moment I'm looking at paying uni fees with my freelance writing jobs - which are also valuable because htey demonstrate I can communicate, though obviously not as valuable as having track record in actual programming.

Sorry - to clarify - there sort of isn't a "graduate job market" here. There are positions that come up (often short-term) for people who have specific sets of skills.

Are those the modules you are thinking of doing or do you need to pick from those? There seem to be a good selection there. I don't know the content of course but it seems to meet all the needs you have mentioned.

Those are what i'm thinking of doing. It's something like 3/4 of the 3rd year CS courses on offer - I'm leaving out the more computer-game-film-industry kind of stuff. There are also lots more 4th year courses, but entry to 4th year is contingent on performance in years 1-3 (hopefully that won't be an issue - either because I do well enough to get into 4th year and haven't run out of money by then; or because I get a job and don't need to get into 4th year).

It sounds like a good selection for what you want to do - go for it!

It's a pity that there aren't any master's level conversion courses because they sound much better suited to your circumstances. My dh did his at Southbank with a degree in history and no math beyond GCSE. Investing four years that will give you a degree when you already have a PhD seems like a very expensive route to a job.

He recently had a co-op CS student working for him and felt that the maths focus was all wrong from a practical point of view. My ds is also interested in IT at degree level and my dh is adamant that he should be looking for a degree that is not based in a maths department - to much theory and not enough application in his opinion.

Hi nooka - the reason I'm also doing maths & stats is because what I'd like to do is data science, rather than IT, but I might end up in IT, so I'm doing CS rather than just a stats degree. I can't tell what jobs will be available a few years down the line - there are data science jobs here, but there are also lots of IT-type jobs - so I'm going for a fairly broad approach so I can be adaptable.

I agree about degrees being expensive, though 7500 pounds for a 3 year degree is cheap in comparison to the UK's 27000

Data science is very maths and stats heavy. It's not a general programming job, nooka and giddy. There are many jobs now that requires programming skills but aren't IT jobs as such.

No I can see that that's a bit different. Still a pity that there's not something post graduate available training wise. Anyway I hope the courses are enjoyable OP.

Have you considered the open university? The OU does IT courses for students not in the UK. There is a Postgraduate certificate in Computing which might be a cost and time effective way of gaining a qualification while allowing you to earn.

nooka actually I agree with you on the postgraduate point. I don't actually think computer science is a good match for big data. What I disagree with is the maths requirement for data science. It's essentially using computer to analyse a very very large amounts of data. Like excel but better!

I work commercially in data storage (lot of big data, cloud buzzwords etc). I did a bsc in molecular biology, worked as a research scientist for awhile, then did a masters in information systems. This gas always served me well. I picked up scripting and the more technical stuff in the was. having said that, if I had had the time and money to do a full CS degree I probably would of from an interest point if view, but I'm not sure its necessary from a getting a job point if view.

along the way! this is UK though obviously and some time ago.

There are quite a few MSc courses emerging now which specialise in Data Science - it's a shame you can't come and study in the UK if only just for a year. List of grad programmes in Data Science (worldwide) E.g.

City University

Goldsmiths

UEL

There are BSc courses in Data Science now as well - e.g. at Warwick and Nottingham.

University of Liverpool does a distance learning course, although I've not heard good things about their distance learning programme in general, and it expects applicants to have two years relevant work experience.