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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Year 12 not engaging with uni application

48 replies

Claybury · 20/06/2015 12:00

DS did well at GCSE ( straight A's) and is doing maths and sciences at AS. I'm concerned that he may be one of those students who failed to realise the step up needed in year 12. He does not feel he's done well in AS ( he was rightfully confident and in control in year 11. )
I'm not sure if it this new lack of confidence or just his adolescent personality but he really won't engage at all with us about making future plans. He doesn't see the point in going to uni open days, and says he doesn't care where he goes. He thinks online research is all he needs to do.
He does see the need to get a degree ( he only seems motivated by the need to earn a decent salary !)
I know some 17 year olds have no idea what they want to do, but he's not even thinking of options. He assumes he will do maths,( maybe with economics) as this is his best A'level. There is no enthusiasm or even a flicker of interest though.
He also has literally zero hobbies / stuff to write about on a PS. As well as totally refusing to get a summer job though we explained to him at length ove the years that he needs stuff for his CV/ PS.
I will add he is a regular smoker of cannabis ( not daily AFAIK) despite our best efforts to stop him and obviously I'm worried this may be the cause of his lack of motivation. He worked hard in year 11, did far better than expected, and refused to believe that the weed would have any effect on him. Don't flame me for this, we have sent him to drug counsellors and taken all steps we can to stop him, but it's what his group of mates do and it's what they WANT to do in their spare time.
Any advice ?

OP posts:
2rebecca · 22/06/2015 18:49

If he's not motivated he may be better taking a year or 2 out and working. That's what my stepson did and then decided to do a degree that was in a totally different direction to the direction he was going in at school and then had the maturity and motivation to really go for it. With education being so expensive now I'd discourage anyone who wasn't passionate about their degree from bothering with one.

Morporkia · 23/06/2015 13:44

Claybury, my DS was very much like yours... straight A student for most of his school career. he started college and it all went downhill. DH and I, as well as various teachers and tutors, badgered him to keep up, try harder, apply for uni. he scraped his results and managed to get a place at his 3rd choice university. Off he went at 18, full of himself and his natural ability.. and was home 6 months later. depressed, dejected and unemployed. I felt so let down. I then began to realise that university wasn't his choice. it was ours. we had assumed that his intelligence automatically meant he was destined for university, a degree and a well paid, stable career. At the time he was too immature to tell us what HE wanted and how HE saw his life progressing. he went off to work night shifts in a DIY warehouse and in his own time, at his own instigation, decided that uni was the best choice and has now just finished his first year. Your son is about to embark on his adult life and not all of his choices are going to please you, but they are HIS choices and all you can do is offer advice and hope that he takes it.

Millymollymama · 23/06/2015 18:09

Unfortunately getting an A grade at GCSE is not as high as an A and even A students can find the transition to A levels difficult . If he has no motivation, I would think a Maths degree would be rather hellish! I know of a student with a star studded maths background (kangaroo, school subject prize etc) who found year 1 of a maths degree more difficult than expected.

I think he is a child who makes unwise choices. It will be interesting to see if he decides to continue socialising with the losers or decide that earning money is the better way forward, via a degree he is interested in or an apprenticeship. However, by the sounds of him, his interview skills might need a bit of work if he is to get an apprenticeship! If he has nothing to say, it will be a short interview!

Relax over the summer. Can you go away on a long holiday to prize him away from his friends? It must be very frustrating OP and I do sympathise with you.

UptheChimney · 23/06/2015 18:34

With education being so expensive now I'd discourage anyone who wasn't passionate about their degree from bothering with one

This! Although my concern isn't about the expense -- a British degree is cheap in terms of its quality & global standing, and an excellent investment. But as a tutor, I do get rather sick of kids who are at university because that's what is the done thing, or they want a high mark to get a high salary ...

I'd much rather teach a woman returning to education after children, or someone retraining in mid-life. They KNOW what sort of a privilege & opportunity a university education is, and they are usually a delight to teach.

He needs to take time out, if he doesn't start to step up.

TheWordFactory · 24/06/2015 08:00

It's quite common for young people to feel paralysed at this stage.

The choices seem too vast and too important.Especially for those students whose grades mean they do have a lot of choice.

Lots of universities get last minute applications Wink.

I don't buy the idea that you need to be absolutely sure about your course/institution/life at 16/17 otherwise you shouldn't bother. That's simply not how many young people are.

I'm also unconvinced by the idea that it's better to return to study later in life. Sure, it's great if you want to and can. I did a second degree when my DC were born. But the reality was that my choices were far narrower due to logistics and the work was much tougher to organise. Also I wasn't too worried about using it as an opportunity to pick up soft skills etc but I absolutely would not have wanted that to be my only university experience.

Merrylegs · 24/06/2015 08:20

A, You don't need to go to open days. Look online at the courses, apply and go to offer days - much more useful.
B,The most important thing on a PS is to demonstrate an interest in the subject you are studying. If he is interested in a particular aspect of maths, or something on the uni course interests him and he can say why - perhaps back it up with something he has read, that is more useful than washing up in a pub or whatever job he might be able to get in the summer. In fact I would say the less access he has to earning money the better because
C, the cannabis smoking is really worrying. Do school know? That would be a chucking out offence here. Forget about volunteering, PSs, open days. That is absolutely the only thing you should be talking to him about.

alreadytaken · 24/06/2015 09:39

cannabis now is often stronger stuff than was around in my day (old fogey here). Still most of the cannabis smokers eventually settled down, got jobs and children and dont want to see their children make their mistakes.

Having taken several young people to open days the sheer size of most universities can be a bit offputting for some young people. The subject lectures can inspire others and suggest a subject they haven't previously considered. Difficult to know what to advise about that but you cant force a 17 year old to go if they dont want to do so.

Do you know any students from a year above now studying maths at university? A trip to visit a maths student on a normal university day might help to show him that there are other people like him at uni.

Even for maths a gap year doesnt have to be a bad thing - he would need to show some evidence of continued interest in maths.

Molio · 24/06/2015 12:10

Your first sentence suggests the cannabis didn't hugely impact on those friends of yours though already taken so I'm wondering in what way they'd deem smoking it a massive mistake? I'm not advocating it, just saying pick your battles - once they get to uni they'll find far more dangerous substances there and breeding rebellion won't help.

Claybury · 24/06/2015 13:44

Molio you raise a good point. I've never smoked weed and I'm interested to know if ex smokers of weed have regrets about it . DS has always been adamant it's not harming him, he uses his high levels of motivation/success in year 11 to disprove all My arguments. However I think I am starting to detect a loss of drive him in which really concerns me. They say in young brains it changes your brain chemistry. I'm terrified that he is damaging his brain. At a very rough guess he's been smoking twice a week for around 3 years.
As for other substances - he's been there and done that. And says he won't touch other stuff again. University will not be introducing him to anything new, other than lack of supervision / curfew. I live in London and kids are using MDMA at parties from year 10-11. Shock
As for picking battles , realistically we can't stop a 17 year old smoking so we are not in battle over it, although he knows how we feel.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 24/06/2015 14:07

Claybury, you might pack "We Are Our Brains: From the Womb to Alzheimer's" by Dick Swaab as part of your holiday reading. A sort of putting together of current knowledge about how brains work in a popular way, chapters on the teenage brain and also on the impact of drugs. The sort of ting you can dip in an out of. (I think it was origionally a series of newspaper articles.) With MRI scans etc, neuroscience is a rapidly progressing field. The simple message is that drugs are not good, especially for teenagers.

I agree though with earlier posters about backing off. DD is the same age though is increasingly engaged with education. She likes sixth form much more than earlier years not least because she is taking subjects she enjoys. She knows exactly what she wants to do, but still wont think about Open Days. My guess is that there is so much going on that she can only take it one step at a time. So AS first, and now all sorts of school stuff, then holiday work experience/subject reading/essay competition, and then results day. At this point, when she knows what she needs, I think I will be able to think about UCAS. There is no point nagging. These poor DC have so much to do, it all feels so major, so she needs to do it at her own pace. I am happy to support/facilitiate by booking stuff etc, but know if I were to tell her she needs to do something, she would dig in. There is a lot to be said for "good enough", so she may not end up doing everything. Better that than start year 13 stressed and worried.

I also agree that a Gap year is a good plan B. It takes the stress off Yr 13. A good proportion of DS's friends who took a gap year have ended up changing their minds on what they want to study and indeed where they want to study. Having said that you need to do something during that year, though I am not sure it matters what you do. So helping out at your old school or holding down a pretty boring low paid job, probably adds to maturity as much as "travelling".

TheWordFactory · 24/06/2015 15:18

I smoked weed as a teen in my twenties.

It never impacted upon my motivation. However it was weak stuff back then and we could only afford the odd eighth.

The people I know whose motivation has been buggered by it are those who were smoking very regularly. They seem to be 'stuck'.

I also know a few who went off their rocker on it but they were habitual smokers ie several times a day.

My issue today is skunk; the devil 's own weed. Very potent and addictive. Also linked with mental health issues.

UptheChimney · 24/06/2015 15:29

I was listening to Woman's Hour earlier today on gap years. When I recommend a gap year, I don't mean the "Gap Yah" of parody, where a "naice" child goes off to "help" those less fortnunate than him/herself.

I mean, a year out of formal education, out of the sausage machine, and into work. So that intending students know that going to university is their active preference not just because that seems to be the automatic route they're on.

Higher ed is a privilege not a finishing school. And anyone who actively wants to go should be enabled to go; likewise, if you're going because you can't think of anything better to do, I'd rather (speaking as a tutor) you stayed away!

UptheChimney · 24/06/2015 15:31

And getting stoned twice a week for the last 3 years? That's pretty heavy stuff: isn't that like getting drunk twice a week from the age of 14 or 15? I hate to think what that's doing to the boy's physical & mental health.

That's a tough one.

TheWordFactory · 24/06/2015 17:49

I suppose it depends whether smoking weed twice a week involves a couple of tokes on a shared joint or getting off his tits on a bong for hours.

Claybury · 25/06/2015 17:38

Thewordfactory- the former I hope, and not skunk
Thanks for all replies, helpful to see differing views.
And maybe there is hope, he has decided to accompany a mate to an open day - as predicted, friends have more influence than I do , after all what do I know ?

OP posts:
Molio · 25/06/2015 18:35

That's good news then Claybury. Your DS doesn't sound that dissimilar to one of mine. What actually made a difference was some better than expected AS results, when he realised that if he sparked into action he could actually get somewhere decent and that would help him do something decent later in life. He'd played around at school through Y10 and especially 11 so school was focussing on that and it was all very negative. I didn't push anything much except to occasionally tell him not to waste his chances, since he was bright, as your son obviously is. It was plain as a pikestaff that incessant nagging and being on his case 24/7 would have been counterproductive. Anyhow things seemed to come right, albeit at the eleventh hour (but the eleventh hour is still fine!).

BakAkrossTheKaroo · 25/06/2015 22:17

Clay, I work with teenage boys with problem behaviour, most of whom use drugs. It is very hard to get them to engage in worthwhile discussion about the potential risks, esp of weed. My approach is to literally & figuratively kick them where it hurts - in the nuts!

This approach uses the fact that they revel in their status as rebels, both against the law and against society. The easiest way to break the law is through drugs; the easiest way to attack society is through sex (When a 15 year old boy shags a 13 year old girl, he is giving 2 fingers to his school (remember PHSE?), the law, both families, lots of social workers, the Daily Mail etc...). I aim to neutralise these impulses by putting them in conflict with each other.

I explain to them that the cannabinoids (the chemicals that give them the buzz from weed) are predominantly derived from female plant hormones, and that these have the effect of lessening their interest in sex. I have a folder of academic articles on the subject: none of them will ever want to read the full articles, but the abstracts can be pretty stark. For instance,

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19733173

If necessary, I reinforce this by asking them if they have had / ever wanted to have sex immediately after smoking a joint. The answer is invariably "No": although this is more as a result of the hallucinogenic effects of the drug, rather than its transitory caponising effect, it nevertheless drives whom the point: weed makes you less interested in sex.

There are a couple of consequent effects of this that I generally ignore:

I don't labour the point that heavy long-term use reduces fertility in case any of them think of it as a form of male contraception, and use that as an excuse to not use proper prophylaxis.

I forget to tell the boys that the female plant-hormone effect increases interest in sex in girls: a former bf of mine identified this effect & called it gajgaj (Give a joint, get a jump!). For instance, for the article I ref above, I show the boys a copy of the abstract with only

"...suggesting predominantly detrimental effects on male sexual motivation and erectile functioning."

highlit (in neon pink). For some reason, they never read the rest of the abstract, let alone the whole article.

The point I try to make is that weed is a drug that has both benefits and costs, and that they as would-be users need to make their own analysis of these. In general, once they carry out a proper analysis (often informally), they decide that the cool factor of using weed cannot compete with wow factor of being a sexy beast, so their use declines.

Molio · 26/06/2015 08:28

Yes that's true but it requires very heavy regular use to affect fertility I think and one problem is that teenagers, until they stop being teenagers, have a tendency to think that nothing will ever affect them.

TightWadBastard · 09/07/2015 12:35

I've just posted a thread about this and my DD who is doing sweet FA. She is doing nothing this summer, I've shown her jobs to apply for and she hasn't, she isn't doing anything.

What is it with kids????

MayPolist · 20/07/2015 13:47

He doesn't need hobbies and stuff for his PS.The vast majority of Uni courses are recruiting not selecting, so long as he has the grades.All he needs to dois write a bit about why he likes maths and his favourite areas.

My DS2 (also planning to do maths ) is at summer school this week and doing a project called 'Experience Cambridge' and will be visiting next week.I think what a waste of time and travel costs!! You said he worked reasonably hard or his AS levels ,I think you should just let the poor kid chill and rechage his batteries.It is called the summer holiday for a reason.The clue is in the name!

mummymeister · 21/07/2015 10:05

If he is thinking of doing Maths then most courses advise that this is not a subject where taking a gap year is beneficial. in fact it can be detrimental. so if he really is thinking of maths at Uni then a gap year is definitely not the way to go in my opinion. I realise you cant stop a 17 yr old smoking but what was the deal when he was 14 then? also I think it only fair that you let the parents that he babysits for know that this is a lad who smokes weed twice a week. I certainly wouldn't want him babysitting my children. he needs to grow up. actions have consequences. smoking weed = lose your babysitting jobs. what help does he give around the house? does he get pocket money, driving lessons etc. make him realise that everything costs and the dropping out situation he seems to be setting himself up for just isn't an option. University isn't the best option for everyone. but sitting round on your backside all day, poncing off enabling parents, smoking weed is right for no one.

MadamArcatiAgain · 21/07/2015 12:56

sitting round on your backside all day....,

He is on school holidays!!

mummymeister · 21/07/2015 14:48

MadamArcatiAgain - read what I said. if he decides not to go to University then sitting around isn't an option. agree he is on school hols now but the OP is talking about options for his future isn't she. He has to know now that he needs to make some sort of plans for the future and if not uni, then a structured gap year/time and if not that some training and if not that a job. the next year will fly by. all you have to do is spend a few minutes looking and their are lots of threads on MN about 20 somethings who were like this at 17 and are still like it now. OP is right to try and get a grip on it and sort it now.

as for being on holiday, I wasn't fortunate enough to come from a naice middle class family. from the age of 16 I had to take a job in the school summer hols - Woolworths couldn't have survived without us working then! Perhaps if he wants money then he needs to clean his act up and go get a job in Primark.

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