Medicine application

[MauAnt]

Hello all
My daughter in L6 is considering applying for Medicine. She got 11A*s at GCSE and is doing Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology. She had wanted to do French but I discouraged her and now she thinks that she is at a disadvantage for medical school because she does not have a contrasting subject to science to show essay writing, breadth, all roundness and her ability outside Science and Maths. Won't her ability show in her GCSE results and is she really at a disadvantage for not taking a non science subject at A level?

I'm a Dr and I regulary help with applications. I think u are right- as long as she meets grade criteria then any extras don't help.
Well- rounded ness is judged by the personal statement.
It's not about doing lots and lots- it's more about how u write about it.

If u do too much and ur grades suffer u won't get a place.

Plenty of people get a medicine offer without a contrasting subject.

There's a very useful page on applying using your strengths at www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Applying_to_Medical_School_using_your_Strengths

As long as she has chemistry and biology she'll be fine. But tell her to look up medical school websites and find out for herself. She could even ring or email one or two admission tutors for clarification if she's still uncertain, they're very friendly and helpful :)

If she is in year 12 now she should be doing work experience, which is essential before applying. Some hospitals offer a work shadowing scheme, and volunteering in a care home is valuable. This will give her some experience to reflect on when she writes her personal statement. All the best to her. She has excellent GCSE results.

Most medical students will have done all science. Breadth etc is demonstrated by out of school stuff like volunteering, Saturday jobs, musical instruments etc.

Of course you then do a degree course and job that leaves practically no time for all that breadth - we spent a lot of time being sad about this at medical school.

My daughter is applying for medicine this year. She did Maths & the 3 science subjects for AS, dropped Physics for A2. As someone else said, chemistry is essential, lots of places require Biology. I've never heard of anyone being disadvantaged by not doing a contrasting subject.

The crucial thing is to continue her GCSE success & get all As for AS. Then do the UKCAT at the end of the summer. How she does in both of those should be used to focus where she applies to. Then do the BMAT too if necessary.

You have to do lots of research & be very strategic.

Thanks all for your help I was worried that I had limited her chances

You definitely haven't. But you both need to go into this process with your eyes open. So many really good applicants don't get an offer. Or it comes months after they applied. Meanwhile all their friends have had offers for everywhere they applied to almost straight away etc.

My DD did Bio, Chem, Maths & History and dropped History after AS (she loved history but felt sciences were easier in some respects). She got 3 offers and offer of waiting list for 4th if she had no other offers. If your DD gets A grades at AS and good A2 predictions, then it's down to personal statement, UKCAT/BMAT. Thorough research into each Uni's criteria is crucial to applying wisely (for instance Newcastle's golden ticket to interview was UKCAT, assuming AS/A2 requirements are met - although these criteria can change from year to year, e.g. I think Leeds is now BMAT instead of UKCAT). Good luck, it's a roller coaster and she must be committed and determined.

My son did History along side the three sciences for A2 and I don't think it advantaged him particularly, other than he preferred it to Maths so enjoyed sixth form more. Equally, not having Maths hasn't disadvantaged him particularly, either in terms of securing offers or during the course.

Kundry it's obviously hard work at medical school but doesn't seem to be all work and no play - DS seems to have a tolerable work/ life balance although he's only a third year - perhaps it gets to be an even heavier workload as time goes on?

Decorbate or anyone else out there you refer to going into the process with your eyes open, is there anything you can suggest that I may have missed. She volunteers in an elderly people home for 2 hours once a week, is involved in the DoE scheme, has had a work experience placement at out local hospital last summer and in Manchester hospital with her Godfather who is a consultant there. She is not sporty but has undertaken netball at school and is in the team. She mentors a younger student assigned to her at school and I think that covers it. She is applying for more voluntary work in the hospital this summer but also has the added pressure of preparing for the UKCAT and BMAT exams. In terms of subject choices she is doing maths and further maths and the 3 sciences all in AS. She is doing double maths A2 now in her AS year with the hope she can get an A* as this will influence whether she will apply to Cambridge or not. In U6 A2 she will be left with 4 subjects and intends to drop Physics and do the other 3 - Further Maths, Chemistry and Biology. Does this sound right for medical school applications? Have I overlooked anything? She is my oldest child so it is a learning process for me so excuse the many questions. The whole thing is driving me round the bend as it did when I was applying for her 11+ schools!!

Hold the panic! She needs to focus on her AS right now, along with researching where she wants to apply and leave UKCAT/BMAT preparation to the summer hols (although she needs to book her UKCAT test well before Sept so she has plenty of time to reconsider where to apply depending on result). She has some work experience which is great, it's more what you have learnt, than the quantity. Your DD should be doing most of the research, it should her drive and motivation. Getting into medical school is just the start, it's a tough road. She needs to be organised, methodical and plan her application, research medical schools and manage her AS study. There are plenty of helpful books out there on how to apply and guidance on writing personal statements, UKCAT/BMAT preparation, interviews etc. My DD has no doctors in the family and did her own research with me hovering in the background (and leaving useful books on her desk). It's tough, but if she wants it enough she will be motivated to put in the research and work really hard between now and her application.

I agree, hold the panic. My DD will also be applying next year. She will present a different profile. She is dyslexic and though her grades should be good enough, they won't be starry. However she has a lot of genunine Extra Curricular and non-academic school achievement, and feedback from teachers etc is that personality wise they think she would make a good doctor. My hope is that there is room for diversity in medicine. DD is wanting a practical, patient facing, career. She does not plan to take BMAT as she is not interested in a longer more academic course. She simply wants to get the training and start work, at the moment thinking on the lines of GP, surgeon or trauma.

I too am fretting. There are so many hurdles and she wants this so much.

My thinking, though obviously not proven, is that you need to play to your stengths. When DD gets her UKCAT and AS results she plans to go through the options carefully. Different medical schoools filter on different criteria. My guess is that a number of courses will rule themselves out naturally. DD is relaxed about simply applying to those that are most likely to take her, and if she has more than 4 on her list she will look in more detail at the course and which is most suitable for someone with dyslexia. Given your DDs academic strengths, and assuming she will want a more academic career, she may be better off focussing on more research orientated schools, and perhaps will have more scope to consider what course suits her best. There is a huge amount of material on Student Room. Our experience is that people involved in medicine are more than happy to share their views. (The dentist simply said "don't"!)

Her school says to treat it as a two year application process. Every year some very strong candidates wont get places. So to focus on AS and UKCAT this summer so you are applying with the best possble grades and then if she does not get a place spend a gap year doing something constructive and reapply.

And to answer your question. I don't think not having French will matter, as she is likely to be applying for very academic courses where they are mainly looking for straight intellectual horsepower. So high UMS scores and high BMAT.

If you are thinking of Cambridge you might want to check how they treat double maths at A2. I think as long as you have 4 subjects at AS that include 3 sciences (they count maths as a science) it doesn't really matter what the 4th subject is. The general feeling is that 4 sciences is preferred but my dd had history as a fourth and got an offer. What you really need are high UMS at AS, a good BMAT and come across as someone they would like to teach at interview. Also don't get hung up on Oxbridge. It's a very different style of course and certainly not for everyone.

What I meant MauAnt was that you have to apply very strategically, eg no point in applying to Cambridge if AS UMS scores are not almost perfect, don't apply to a place that wants high UCAT if your dd's is just average. And if you go in with the attitude that she may not get any offers first time round, it will be a lovely bonus if she does.
My dd didn't have a huge amount of work experience, just enough to be able to waffle about it. Volunteers once a fortnight with a learning disability group. Ten week stint helping at a local hospital. Which she felt she didn't get much out of but had to be done.
If you are applying to a very academic medical school they don't care a huge amount about anything other than the academics anyway!

the thing slightly limiting her chances is doing one subject early. She needs 3 A grades in one sitting to show she can manage workload. One London medical school likes a contrasting subject but do well in the BMAT and they are still likely to be offered a place.

Medicine is not just about academic excellence and the best doctors are not always the academically most able. Success at medical school is related to how well they do at A level but success after graduation is less related to A level ability. So you will find quite a variety in how much weight medical schools place on academic skill. My child was asked about their voluntary work and work experience at Cambridge. Their college does care about non academic skills although some other colleges may be less sensible. Choose college carefully if she applies as although it should not affect her chance of getting a place at Cambridge some colleges do take mainly their own applicants. Less competitive colleges sometimes take more pooled candidates than direct applicants.

You dont need near perfect ums to get a place at Cambridge but competitive medicine applicants usually have 90+ in the three most relevant subjects. People who had less have had offers after doing well in BMAT and at interview.

If she applies to Cambridge she's guaranteed an interview but if she gets a place it will be more difficult to get the extra points for being in the top deciles of the medical school. Those points can make a difference when choosing F1 posts. It's a small number of points and my child chose to go to Cambridge anyway but she should know about it and choose with her eyes open. Cambridge turn out a higher percentage of surgeons than any other medical school, including Oxford, something to consider.

Any questions pm me, I dont visit mumsnet often.

Hi Already taken thanks for the information. She will still be doing 3 A levels in A2 as she will be taking Chemistry, Biology and Further Maths. Probably I should convince to not drop Physics but drop further maths instead - I do not know. Are they meant to do 4 subjects at A2 or 3 and is further maths not considered a subject? If so will Physics be a better option for her? (She likes Maths and Physics equally)

I think this is too important for you to rely on info from here, your DD should find out from the medical schools. I have seen that often further maths is not considered along side maths as two separate subjects, so she might really shoot herself in the foot with that as one of her 3 in A2, but she might be ok as she will have done them all within 2 years. I would check it out.

IMO taking Maths and Further Maths is a complete waste of time when applying to do Medicine. One Maths only will suffice. Drop Further Maths and take Physics instead.

I read over and over again in Medicine discussions such as this one, too much emphasis is placed on work experience and the so-called required length of time doing it in order to ‘stand out’ in UCAS Medicine application. This, I’m afraid, is a bit of a fallacy. Yes, work experience is good and maybe even important too. But it’s not the be all and the end all. Medical schools are aware that not all potential medics have the opportunity to acquire the relevant WE no matter how dedicated the pupil may be. Likewise, a pupil who camps in a hospital is not guaranteed to have a successful application.

I know of a certain medic now in his penultimate year at Trinity, Cambridge. I remember congratulating him some years back when he first told me about his 4 offers from unis including two London schools and Edinburgh. When I asked him what were his WE like (suspecting that he didn’t have much), he literally laughed out loud and replied, “What work experience?”

I would agree with the poster who said you need almost perfect UMS for Cambridge. I know of people averaging 97-98 in all four subjects and still don’t get in. Extra curriculum e.g. sports, etc. don’t mean a bean to the premier Cambridge colleges e.g. Trinity. A Cambridge admissions tutor once said, “I’d be very worried, for example, of an England rugby international applying here - he’d be asking more time off for training than learning Medicine.”

I assume you are from Manchester or thereabout. It would do your DD a power of good in her medicine application if she could come down to London (Windsor) on the 20 of June for a one-day conference organised by the Royal Society of Medicine in association with Eton College for the Medical Careers Day:So you want to be a doctor?

Good luck!

Hi peternaras actually I am in Oxford, my DD only went to Manchester hospital as her Godfather is a consultant there. I could ask at Eton as my other DD goes there so might get some useful information. I am going to try and convince her to stick to Physics as it makes sense and anything else might be a risk. I will liaise with her head of form as I am panicky mode and do not want her to make a dreadful mistake in her subject choices

Does her school have good experience in medical applications? If so it is worth listening to them. I am sure admissions offices would not mind her phoning and asking. Does she enjoy physics? Not everyone does. Is it well taught at her school? And remember she is the candidate, and she is the one who will be interviewed. She will need to show understanding of and enthusiasm for a medical career.

It is difficult. Its easy as an adult to see the need to buckle down and get the grades and tick the boxes. However this is the time to encourage them to take responsibility. Advice DD has had is that getting a place is only the start. There are then five or six years of tough exams, that some students will fail. DS is not studying medicine but is on a course where most students will have achieved several A*s at A level. A surprisingly high proportion will fail their second year and have to retake. The common denominator seems to be insufficient work. Its fine working all out to get the grades for medical school, but there needs to be sufficient personal motivation to see you through the rest.

And do see it as a two year process. One problem for very bright kids is that they may not have faced rejection before, and it can come as a shock. We are told that last year two candidates with 4xA* failed to get any offers. So many good candidates are applying that in part it becomes a bit of a lottery. The worst that can happen is that not getting an offer in Yr13 impacts on study for A2, and thus on chances for a sucessful re-application.

It's only March, your DD has plenty of time until she needs to decide what subjects she takes to A2. She sounds like a really clever girl.

I would get your DD to check with the actual medicine admissions policies for the Unis she is interested in. I wouldn't rely on any other info. The admissions criteria change year on year.

It sounds like she is really worried about her personal statement. My DS did work experience/volunteer work but apart from that didn't have much to put on his ps. If you think of all the thousands of applications that the admissions tutors look through I just can't believe they care too much about things like DofE/prefect/music grade8 type of things. I think it's more to do with how you reflect on your work experience rather than producing a check list of 'achievements'

(I think ...) The personal statement only consists of 4000 characters inc spaces - If she is not careful she will find that she has given up time doing things for her personal statement that she can't even mention as she won't have space.

You should pay attention to how the universities that she is interested in shortlist their candidates. Some Uni's have a simple pass or fail for their academic criteria. With no extra credit being awarded to students who exceed their academic entry requirements. (This was the case two years ago....it could have changed since)

My DD has realised that many universities do not consider Maths and Further Maths as separate subjects and that she will be disadvantaged dropping Physics in A2 which will leave her with only 2 A2 subjects - Chemistry and Biology as she will be taking her AS and A2 Maths together this May/June. She is now considering not taking the A2 Maths in the AS year and deferring it for her A2 year as she is not keen to Physics in A2. This is a shame as she has prepared for the A2 Maths but probably is the only option she has unless she sticks with Physics in A2 and drops or continues with Further Maths as she originally planned to

If she's not keen on Physics for A2 don't take it! A friend of my DD (a really clever girl) found Physics A2 a nightmare and only just scrapped an A. Go with the 'safer' option of Chem, Bio and Maths.

I'm sure this is not really going to help anyone, except maybe someone who has realised quite late that they want to do medicine, but my dd has a friend who has just been accepted at Durham with Economics, English Lit and Biology as her A levels. She comes from a family of medics, but resisted, took the 'wrong' subjects but has been offered a place anyway. I presume her gcse results were pretty good.