Advice from fellow academics, please??

[NK5BM3]

I've just been headhunted and been offered a senior management role in a university in London. (All happened in the last few weeks). I think I got short listed because of my managerial experience where I am now, and also coz I'm research active. All good so far.

It will however require me to commute to London and I'm in the se. Money aside (we are still negotiating), would you guys commute? It'll roughly be 1h 15 min or so each way. Chances are I will get a seat there and back. I currently work 5-10 min drive from home. Kids are in primary school and after school clubs. Dh works locally.

I would like to get ahead in academia as would anyone else who's interested in a career I guess (not just in academia, but just in general). I think I'm a good manager and will be considering positions like deans/associate deans, after this job if i do decide to go for it.

What would you do?

I wouldn't advise a colleague in their 30s or 40s to take a management role paid at 50-60k (inc London weighting!) which cuts out research

This!!!!! (for me, at any rate, although the thought of doing one of those roles is a temptation ... Get behind me, Satan!)

Targets of 100k per year in a maths department for a lecturer?

That's utter nonsense - such income is not the norm in Oxbridge maths, let alone anywhere else. 100k per year would mean 2 postdocs per staff member. 200k per year would mean 4 postdocs per staff member. So for a group of 5 permanent staff that would mean 10-15 postdocs. Look up top Oxbridge maths research groups and you will see that the ratios are nowhere near this, even taking into account college fellowships (which are not attributable to any staff member). There is simply not that much money available for mathematics research.

I have always worked at "top tier universities" and I have never seen Excel charts comparing research income between individual staff members. I have seen comparisons of income made during disputes about research strategy but not in such crude terms.

On the other hand I do know that some of the less strong universities set ridiculous and unachievable targets of this type for academics in maths.

Of course more applied sciences work very differently, and there is pressure for mathematicians to move away from blue skies into work which is funded industrially, but Excel targets are not (yet) the norm in all of sciences.

I have always worked at "top tier universities" and I have never seen Excel charts comparing research income between individual staff members. I have seen comparisons of income made during disputes about research strategy but not in such crude terms

Ditto.

We have unit/Department/School & Faculty targets. But it's rarely drilled down to individuals in terms of setting strategy; it might be a consideration for promotion or confirmation of probation.

I was surprised about the math number, too, but I think they do applied modelling (e.g. operations research, food safety, environmental erosion etc.), I shouldn't be too specific what projects but yes I can see how it happens easily looking at their research pages.

In Depts I work in (not pure sciences), 2+ FT RA equivalents per lecturer is normal in the non-RG Unis. It's not normal at Oxbridge??
I'm working for a Prof who currently has 5 FT-equiv. RAs (though 0.5 is a temp) + 1.5 FT project managers. You're telling me that's unusual?

(Back to battling with my dropbox login)

As stated above, I think any move to another institution in academia would require very careful consideration of what the working environment is like. There are some institutions which are known for having a downright toxic culture, where bullying is simply an accepted management strategy. A couple of the University of London colleges are well known for this.

2+ postdocs is not normal for maths at Oxbridge; higher numbers of postdocs are obtained in experimental sciences and engineering.

"There are some institutions which are known for having a downright toxic culture, where bullying is simply an accepted management strategy. A couple of the University of London colleges are well known for this."

A survivor of one such university in London. Ugh. Horrible toxic awful place. One of the deans was recently sacked after she lost her third case in an employment tribunal for bullying. I could tell you more but I'd probably need therapy for PTSD.

I think there was a slight misunderstanding, or reading of my post about it being 'senior management'. Possibly me. But I was saying that I currently do a managerial role. They've obviously think that's valuable and have now offered me this position which they've described as senior management. I do not think it is (but I guess it's being part of a 'senior managers team') but I'm hopeful that this job would help get me to 'proper' senior jobs such as associate dean et al in the future. It's a research-active role too. I've got part-way through my REF2020 submission.

In terms of the toxic environments, thankfully I've never really been in any, but I've heard of many. I was informally headhunted by the Head of one such place, and he was such a nutjob, I was pretty sure I'd go mad in a week.

this new place isn't any of those toxic places, but I think it would still be a good idea to ask what turnover, and have a feel of what their work culture is like.

To go back to the commute question... I commute 1hr20mins door-desk in academia. I'm reverse commuting (live in London, work at a uni in the SE) and I've always done this. It's become somewhat more challenging since I had DC, but I'm pretty much always home for bedtime. No one really cares what hours I work, so long as I get my work done, hit my research targets, etc, which I'm still just about managing to do.
Presuming you'll have similar agency over your working hours at your new gig, I wouldn't let the commute itself put you off. It can be a productive time to work and nap. I also like that it creates a kind of 'decompression zone' between work and home.

Yes, me too, CityDweller but like you, I did the commute backwards.

Not read the entire thread and know it's a bit late, but - jump at it. My commute is 1.5 hours door to door, most of it on the train where I usually get a seat even at the busiest times so can use that time to work (or vegetate, depending on how I'm feeling!). It is totally, completely doable, and academic jobs are so bloody competitive you would be crazy not to do the commute.

I'd say differently if your DH was already commuting, but you say he's working locally - he'll just have to be the one to pick up the DCs if they're poorly at school or whatever.

Do it without a moment's hesitation! Non-academics have no idea, seriously.

And mine's into London. It's seriously fine.

Hi pirate! Thanks for that vote of confidence.

I meet the team on Tuesday. They've upped the pay. I tell them my decision on Wednesday.....

I do that kind of commute but work from home 2 days a week. Is that a possibility?

Good to hear they've upped the pay.

Just a small update. My boss is now in negotiations with me. He's verbally promised some things but of course, nothing is real till he puts it on paper. He's getting the dean to agree to some things. Argh. Time is running out.

Get them to put it in writing. Full stop. The end.

He knows he has to put it in writing. I see my boss late afternoon tomorrow. I see the new place in the morning... Argh.

Another small update: counter offer is looking v good. It will enable me to get things done that I've been struggling with due to lack of time. He's also increased the pay...

Oh............. I'm conflicted.